Colonisation : The Plantations of Ireland. Ancient and Modern.

Hunter-Gatherer

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You may have heard of the Milesians, na fir bolg, the tuatha De Danann ? From the 'book of invasions' are ancient stories that have drifted into myth and legend. Or perhaps you were aware of the efforts of the Tudor and Stuart Royalty in England to displace the troublesome irish with a more compliant and civil community. A community easier to rule and less likely to rebel.

Or that the Normans were often described as being 'more irish than the irish themselves'. The dictate from Oliver Cromwell that the native irish may go to 'hell or Connaught'. With the best agricultural land in Leinster being kept for Anglo settlers and their allies.

Getting to modern times, we have the irony that Peig Sayers, a lady often regarded as the most irish of all, bears a foreign surname. A surname which even contains a letter absent from the irish alphabet. And we are now told that there are more than half a million non-irish nationals living in our midst. Visits to Tralee, Longford, West Dublin or Dundalk will confirm that there is a sea change happening in our demographics. A Sea change that i do not recall being debated in the Dail or at the election hustings in recent times. The whole situation begs some pertinent questions :

- What are the longterm effects of Plantations on Ireland ?
- Who are the winners and losers from these developments ?
- What democratic mandate is there, if any ?
- Can we be confident of peaceful and prosperous civil society over the next number of years ?
- What is the role of the EU, Multinationals, the Media, Bankers and other international organisations in all of this ?
- Can the country's infrastructure ( schools, hospitals, housing, roads etc) cope with greater numbers ?
- What other European Countries have lessons to teach the irish ? Sweden, France, Netherlands, Greece, UK, Hungary, Poland.
- What will future irish culture and identity look like, following the lessons of history ?

Please keep the discussion respectful and polite at all times.

Did you know the Gaelic alphabet has only 18 letters? – Celtic Heart
.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/1568237/more-than-500000-non-irish-nationals-from-200-different-nations-live-in-ireland-and-galway-is-our-most-multicultural-city/
.
https://www.houseofnames.com/sayers-family-crest
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland
-
Flood of UK exiles 'will inflame our crisis in housing' - Independent.ie
 
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between the bridges

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Ach sure without it ye'z wouldn't have the pleasure of reading moi's informative posts...
 

Fr Peter McWhinger

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Europe made a half hearted effort to colonise Africa and Asia and it failed miserably.

Instead of becoming vigorous and outbreeding the African & Asian Population Europe thought to enslave the native populations of those lands.

Now in a perverse sort of way those people will end up colonising Europe and wiping out the Europeans as a sub species of the Human Race.
 

lilesosanne

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You may have heard of the Milesians, na fir bolg, the tuatha De Danann ? From the 'book of invasions' are ancient stories that have drifted into myth and legend. Or perhaps you were aware of the efforts of the Tudor and Stuart Royalty in England to displace the troublesome irish with a more compliant and civil community. A community easier to rule and less likely to rebel.

Or that the Normans were often described as being 'more irish than the irish themselves'. The dictate from Oliver Cromwell that the native irish may go to 'hell or Connaught'. With the best agricultural land in Leinster being kept for Anglo settlers and their allies.

Getting to modern times, we have the irony that Peig Sayers, a lady often regarded as the most irish of all, bears a foreign surname. A surname which even contains a letter absent from the irish alphabet. And we are now told that there are more than half a million non-irish nationals living in our midst. Visits to Tralee, Longford, West Dublin or Dundalk will confirm that there is a sea change happening in our demographics. A Sea change that i do not recall being debated in the Dail or at the election hustings in recent times. The whole situation begs some pertinent questions :

- What are the longterm effects of Plantations on Ireland ?
- Who are the winners and losers from these developments ?
- What democratic mandate is there, if any ?
- Can we be confident of peaceful and prosperous civil society over the next number of years ?
- What is the role of the EU, Multinationals, the Media, Bankers and other international organisations in all of this ?
- Can the country's infrastructure ( schools, hospitals, housing, roads etc) cope with greater numbers ?
- What other European Countries have lessons to teach the irish ?
- What will future irish culture and identity look like, following the lessons of history ?

Please keep the discussion respectful and polite at all times.

Did you know the Gaelic alphabet has only 18 letters? – Celtic Heart
.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/1568237/more-than-500000-non-irish-nationals-from-200-different-nations-live-in-ireland-and-galway-is-our-most-multicultural-city/
.
https://www.houseofnames.com/sayers-family-crest
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland
-
Flood of UK exiles 'will inflame our crisis in housing' - Independent.ie
Was there an aboriginal population in Ireland to begin with? Reading 'The Origins of the Irish' by JP Mallory will answer that question of where we came from and it appears we come from well everywhere ! Event he ancient bloodline show middle Asian heritage.

Ireland was always multicultural with people coming as concurs, colonisers and through trade and relationships or just for a change of air.
 

Dame_Enda

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There is no concrete evidence of a pre Gaelic language on this island only suppositions. There is also no proof the Gaels were invaders.

There have been invasions where the invaders were small enough in number to assimilate through intermarriage. The Norse Gaels are one example and the Normans another. The Ulster Plantation was different. The towns were largely newly built with segregation in mind. Catholics were banned from the cities for a while in the 1600s. There are parts of NI towns which have been segregated for centuries. The Penal Laws meant that if you married across the religious divide, you risked your children inheriting none of the property on grounds of Catholicism. So the Ulster plantation left a legacy of segregation that didn't exist with the Vikings and Normans.
 
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RasherHash

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There is no concrete evidence of a pre Gaelic language on this island only suppositions. There is also no proof the Gaels were invaders.
Quite the opposite; maybe Charley Haughey was right when he said, 'my ancestors have lived here for 5,000 years.'
 

ruserious

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Racists referring to the rate of immigration as "plantations" do two things:

1) Shows an ignorance for history
2) Shows them to be complete fooking idiots.
 

shiel

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Quite the opposite; maybe Charley Haughey was right when he said, 'my ancestors have lived here for 5,000 years.'
Eighty percent of us have ancestors that lived here for 5,000 years.

They had a stone age language which was replaced by a Celtic language Gaelic.

That in turn was replaced by English.

The only place the stone age language still exists in Europe is in the Basque country.

Funnily enough the Basques are the Europeans most closely related to us on this island and the neighbouring island Gt. Britain.
 
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McTell

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No
Quite the opposite; maybe Charley Haughey was right when he said, 'my ancestors have lived here for 5,000 years.'

Probably some did but not all, and we're all in that boat.

When I was a kid people still believed we were part of the "Irish race", but that has gone on the scrapheap with the language, a unique alphabet, the church etc; now we can be whatever we want and that's much better.
 

lilesosanne

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Quite the opposite; maybe Charley Haughey was right when he said, 'my ancestors have lived here for 5,000 years.'

Haughey (Irish: Ó hEochaidh) is an Irish surname of noble origins. Spelling variations include: Hoey, McCaughey and McKeogh, among others. Modern spelling comes from the original Ó hEochaidh.

According to Wiki; The Haugheys are descendants of the ancient Dál Fiatach dynasty, rulers of Ulaid. They trace their descent from Fiatach Finn mac Dáire, a King of Ulster and High King of Ireland in the 1st century AD.[1] In addition to a number of Scottish clans, as well as the British Royal Family (through the House of Dunkeld), their lineage extends to the Darini/Dáirine.
 

eoghanacht

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Racists referring to the rate of immigration as "plantations" do two things:

1) Shows an ignorance for history
2) Shows them to be complete fooking idiots.
So what are we to call the Ulster and Munster and those of Kings & Queens county plantations.

Since that was their official British government policy documents.
 

making waves

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Eighty percent of us have ancestors that lived here for 5,000 years.
Sweeping statement without evidence.

Even if accurate - it equates to 20% who don't have heritage dating back 5,000 and the likelihood that the 80% also have some 'foreign' DNA.

In my immediate past - a great-grandmother on my father's side was English - from Liverpool who married my emigrant great-grandfather who worked on Liverpool docks and a grandmother on my mother's side was also English - it makes me 3/8 English despite the fact that my surname is Irish that dates back to pre-Norman Ulster. In both cases my English ancestry was the result of emigration - not colonisation.
 

Kilbarry

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Imperialism and Oppression

You may have heard of the Milesians, na fir bolg, the tuatha De Danann ? From the 'book of invasions' are ancient stories that have drifted into myth and legend. Or perhaps you were aware of the efforts of the Tudor and Stuart Royalty in England to displace the troublesome irish with a more compliant and civil community. A community easier to rule and less likely to rebel.

Or that the Normans were often described as being 'more irish than the irish themselves'. The dictate from Oliver Cromwell that the native irish may go to 'hell or Connaught'. With the best agricultural land in Leinster being kept for Anglo settlers and their allies.

Getting to modern times, we have the irony that Peig Sayers, a lady often regarded as the most irish of all, bears a foreign surname. A surname which even contains a letter absent from the irish alphabet. And we are now told that there are more than half a million non-irish nationals living in our midst. Visits to Tralee, Longford, West Dublin or Dundalk will confirm that there is a sea change happening in our demographics. A Sea change that i do not recall being debated in the Dail or at the election hustings in recent times. The whole situation begs some pertinent questions :

- What are the longterm effects of Plantations on Ireland ?
- Who are the winners and losers from these developments ?
- What democratic mandate is there, if any ?
- Can we be confident of peaceful and prosperous civil society over the next number of years ?
- What is the role of the EU, Multinationals, the Media, Bankers and other international organisations in all of this ?
- Can the country's infrastructure ( schools, hospitals, housing, roads etc) cope with greater numbers ?
- What other European Countries have lessons to teach the irish ?
- What will future irish culture and identity look like, following the lessons of history ?

Please keep the discussion respectful and polite at all times.

Did you know the Gaelic alphabet has only 18 letters? – Celtic Heart
.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/1568237/more-than-500000-non-irish-nationals-from-200-different-nations-live-in-ireland-and-galway-is-our-most-multicultural-city/
.
https://www.houseofnames.com/sayers-family-crest
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland
-
Flood of UK exiles 'will inflame our crisis in housing' - Independent.ie
The origins of western civilisation are in what we now call the Middle East (Iraq. Egypt, Turkey). The transition from hunter gatherer to farming and stock-breeding, pottery, permanent settlements then cities, the Bronze Age and the Iron Age - all began in that area and then the skills and to some extent the people migrated westwards - with Ireland at the end of the trail. I think OUR Iron Age was several hundred years after the Middle East one. Empires also tended to shift westwards - first Babylon and Egypt, then Greece and Alexander the Great, then the Roman Empire. The fact that the Romans never conquered Ireland meant that Dublin was founded (by Viking invaders) the best part of a thousand years after London - and THAT fact had quite an influence on our history.

Technologically we were the among the last to receive/adapt the latest inventions. The most important of these inventions tended to relate to War and Food Production (e.g. Bronze, Iron and fortified buildings). THAT explains a lot of our history although we ourselves tended to blame the nasty imperialists. (If there was a country west of Ireland that our ancestors could have reached, THEY would have become the nasty imperialists!)
 

shiel

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Sweeping statement without evidence.

Even if accurate - it equates to 20% who don't have heritage dating back 5,000 and the likelihood that the 80% also have some 'foreign' DNA.

In my immediate past - a great-grandmother on my father's side was English - from Liverpool who married my emigrant great-grandfather who worked on Liverpool docks and a grandmother on my mother's side was also English - it makes me 3/8 English despite the fact that my surname is Irish that dates back to pre-Norman Ulster. In both cases my English ancestry was the result of emigration - not colonisation.
Research by Bradley of Trinity.

It was done some time ago and may be qualified since.
 

Kilbarry

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Imperialism and Oppression ?? [2]

The origins of western civilisation are in what we now call the Middle East (Iraq. Egypt, Turkey). The transition from hunter gatherer to farming and stock-breeding, pottery, permanent settlements then cities, the Bronze Age and the Iron Age - all began in that area and then the skills and to some extent the people migrated westwards - with Ireland at the end of the trail. I think OUR Iron Age was several hundred years after the Middle East one. Empires also tended to shift westwards - first Babylon and Egypt, then Greece and Alexander the Great, then the Roman Empire. The fact that the Romans never conquered Ireland meant that Dublin was founded (by Viking invaders) the best part of a thousand years after London - and THAT fact had quite an influence on our history.

Technologically we were the among the last to receive/adapt the latest inventions. The most important of these inventions tended to relate to War and Food Production (e.g. Bronze, Iron and fortified buildings). THAT explains a lot of our history although we ourselves tended to blame the nasty imperialists. (If there was a country west of Ireland that our ancestors could have reached, THEY would have become the nasty imperialists!)
If we can talk about an Irish identity, it has more to do with Religion than with Politics. (Someone said that "War is Politics by other means" and the Irish were not the best at either!) There is an argument that during the Dark Ages, the Irish saved western civilisation and although it's impossible to prove such a general statement, it is certainly true that Irish missionaries spread across what is now England, France and Switzerland and into Northern Italy. There was a major problem when the customs of Irish Christianity were found to conflict with those of the Roman Church - and the latter prevailed at the Synod of Whitby in 664. The issue was important because whatever about technology, the Celtic Church was NOT a spiritual backwater!
 

Connollyist a/c no.2

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Europe made a half hearted effort to colonise Africa and Asia and it failed miserably.

Instead of becoming vigorous and outbreeding the African & Asian Population Europe thought to enslave the native populations of those lands.

Now in a perverse sort of way those people will end up colonising Europe and wiping out the Europeans as a sub species of the Human Race.
south africa went pretty well.
 

londonpride

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Fear not Irish-born man if you are to Ireland true -- Thomas Davis
Fear not the English born O'Donnell. O'Meara. O'Carroll. O'Brian etc ,as their is a nation across the water that has rid of you to the protection of the crown.
So sad for the Irish nation and its peoples attitude to immigrants
 

Fir Bolg

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Was there an aboriginal population in Ireland to begin with? Reading 'The Origins of the Irish' by JP Mallory will answer that question of where we came from and it appears we come from well everywhere ! Event he ancient bloodline show middle Asian heritage.

Ireland was always multicultural with people coming as concurs, colonisers and through trade and relationships or just for a change of air.
This is absolute unhistorical rubbish. As all modern genetic dna testing has proved and continues to prove is that the Irish people are descended from a people and peoples of north west Europe
 


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