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Coming up to Backstop "Crunch-Time" Krauts Break Ranks

livingstone

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Anti Irish sentiment could rise. Especially in Liverpool ,Bolton and Glasgow. People are taking notice of what Snarlene Foster is saying and support for her in certain sections of UK is very high. A lot of Irish are just keeping their heads down .
Total BS. Neither I nor any of my Irish friends have had any problems in London. Irish friends in both Glasgow and Liverpool have been fine. Can't speak about Bolton.

The fact is that as immigrants go, Irish in the UK now have it pretty good in that the prejudice of the past is largely absent. The idea that the Irish Government legitimately seeking to defend its interests should be avoided in case some scumbag bigots decide to take it out on Irish people is ridiculous. Please stop using me and those I know as some sort of weird excuse to say that the Irish Government should stop insisting on a backstop.
 


livingstone

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Well if we pass a law that Sat Nav on haulage trucks must have GPS, that would help police border trade without hard borders being necessary.
I see the Dame has done his usual trick of running away when he can't answer a question about his obvious solution of using GPS to get around the border.

Has anyone told Garmin that there's such a massive opportunity here? Has anyone told the Swedes and Norwegians?
 

noelf

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That’s it except in the same passage Merkel said the WA wasn’t for renegotiation. So really she said the same thing everyone has been saying.
^^^^^^

Being as we're five pages in now, worth re-quoting this again, as a reminder of what Merkel fully said in her piece about creativity.
 

noelf

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Total BS. Neither I nor any of my Irish friends have had any problems in London. Irish friends in both Glasgow and Liverpool have been fine. Can't speak about Bolton.

The fact is that as immigrants go, Irish in the UK now have it pretty good in that the prejudice of the past is largely absent. The idea that the Irish Government legitimately seeking to defend its interests should be avoided in case some scumbag bigots decide to take it out on Irish people is ridiculous. Please stop using me and those I know as some sort of weird excuse to say that the Irish Government should stop insisting on a backstop.
Ditto - I can say exactly the same in terms of London. No anti-Irish sentiment, mostly pure and utter bewilderment and incredulity at the behaviour of the British government/politicians.
 

livingstone

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^^^^^^

Being as we're five pages in now, worth re-quoting this again, as a reminder of what Merkel fully said in her piece about creativity.
You just don't get it OK. There's the bus coming down the tracks (or something) and Merkel and Juncker are preparing to throw paddy (or something) under it. Mmmk?
 

noelf

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I have always said the govt was backing itself into a corner by demanding a region not part of the EU (in a few months possibly) should be part of the Customs Union and Single Market. It goes against the concept of the Single Market to have a non-EU country - or indeed part of one - in it completely without their being external barriers to non-EEA trade. It is true that Norway is part of the Single Market. But Norway also has hi-tech border security with Swede that can take 2 hours I've heard to get through.

The biggest mistake the govt was made was the alleged order to the Dept of Finance to stop investigating technological solutions. I have always argued for GPS tracking.
Yes, it was a terrible day when the Oireachtas committee heard and dismissed your salient submission on this topic, given that you are known as a credible expert, on this, and all other aspects of basically everything.
 

livingstone

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Yes, it was a terrible day when the Oireachtas committee heard and dismissed your salient submission on this topic, given that you are known as a credible expert, on this, and all other aspects of basically everything.
Still waiting for the Dame to explain to us how GPS can tell us if there's smuggled beef in the back of a truck being tracked or not, or how it can test a cow or a packet of sausages entering the market.

In a shock turn of events, he had no answer.
 

noelf

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Still waiting for the Dame to explain to us how GPS can tell us if there's smuggled beef in the back of a truck being tracked or not, or how it can test a cow or a packet of sausages entering the market.

In a shock turn of events, he had no answer.
Simples, each cow gets GPS tags in the sirloin, the rump, the rib, the shank, the round etc. And of course in individual sausages.
 

Ireniall

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As said before ,The UK is much more important to Europe that that little island off the Coast

Some posters on here do not have the intelligence to understand some realities.

The EU operates on self interest , A Solution will be enforced on Ireland.

The Irish in Britain need Dublin's support ,But NO, Just like 1921 when nationalists in the North were dumped , again we are going to see a similar outcome to this Brexit tragedy.
The UK has massively over-estimated its importance and miscalculated to such an extent that the huge economic value it adds to the EU as a member or as a close partner is surpassed by the threat it poses to the whole European project. One of the few positives of Brexit was the prospect that at least they might just go away but the f**kers won't even do that. Personally I'm increasingly sickened looking at them but on the other hand I have increasing admiration for the moderate leavers and remainers trying to spoon feed the Brexiteer infants the truth in small enough doses that they won't choke while simultaneously allowing them to think that they're feeding themselves.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Total BS. Neither I nor any of my Irish friends have had any problems in London. Irish friends in both Glasgow and Liverpool have been fine. Can't speak about Bolton.

The fact is that as immigrants go, Irish in the UK now have it pretty good in that the prejudice of the past is largely absent. The idea that the Irish Government legitimately seeking to defend its interests should be avoided in case some scumbag bigots decide to take it out on Irish people is ridiculous. Please stop using me and those I know as some sort of weird excuse to say that the Irish Government should stop insisting on a backstop.
I wouldn’t say total BS.

I have worked in the UK for the past 25 years. I think rather than an anti Irish sentiment there is a certain amount of resentment and a feeling of betrayal. Betrayal based on an ignorant and patronising notion that the Irish are ‘not really proper foreigners’. I have had people say this to me many times over the years....much to my anyonance but I generally passed it off as a kind of postive ignorance rather than anything malign.

Most brexiteers that I have come across express general sympathy about the negative impact for Ireland, however their attitude is that it’s just unfortunate collateral damage. In their minds their democratic decision is paramount above all and the wider consequences are not their problem. IMO an attitude based on the deluded notion of British exceptionalism and national pride based on their various stands over the centuries against continental consolidation. Hence this low grade sense of grievance at what they see as our betrayal.
 

Clanrickard

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Angela Merkel urges Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to soften backstop demands in order to secure Brexit deal - Irish Mirror Online

Angel Merkel Urges Taoiseach to Soften Backstop Demands in Order to Secure Backstop Deal

Looks to me like just coming up to "Crunch Time" that the Krauts have broken ranks. It wasn't meant to play out like this. Can yous remember all along up till three days ago the EU gave assurances that they stood 100% behind Ireland's request for a backstop.
The playbook was supposed to run along the lines of:
Theresa May asks EU for alteration of the backstop
EU tell Thersa May "nothing doing"
Theresa May goes back to Parliament where they all strut and fret their hour upon the stage and then either:
a) Crash out without a deal (Unlikely as the Irish-American lobby have just put out the message of no trade-deal with the U.S. if they harm the "Good Friday Agreement" in any way.
b) Call a new election which could or should enable a majority which will accept the Customs border going down the Irish sea. i.e. Northern Irleand goes its merry way politically as before but the island of Ireland remains inside the EU Customs Union.

This last b) is the only practical and reasonable solution. Arlene and the DUP will have to compromise.

It must come as a blow to Leo Vardkar and the Irish team who have been playing "Mr Nice Guy" all these years trying to be "good little Europeans".

But it comes as a double-blow to Leo as relations have inevitably soured with the Brits, our third biggest trading partner -- in spite of the best efforts of the Irish side to help the UK achieve the softest Brexit possible.
Leo says as much in his reply to Merkel:


It's not something world-shattering to hold an election (the Brits have one every four years), achieve some sort of a majority that supports Ulster remaining in the customs Union... and then the UK can proceed with their very own Brexit. Ulster is not the size of one pimple on the ass of the British economy. It's not even the end of the rail-road line. You have to catch a ferry as well.

Leo must asking himself... all this EU cammeraderie, solidarity and backslappery just up to the time when it's most needed and then Merkel... (and before this the Polish For-Min) come out and tell him to compromise -- on the Backstop insurance policy.
It's time for FF & FG to count up their chips: The people of Ireland have taken in all these EU workers along with the half of Africa and Asia and have given them jobs and houses while we suffer an enormous homeless problem ourselves. The rescue of the bondholders I need not mention.

One wonders how Theresa May managed to pull this one off. Perhaps it could have something to do with the UK being a member of Nato. And recall that Trump wants to loosen his connections with same just at a time when Putin is doing his sabre-rattling out in the Ukraine.

I would suggest that we have some hard thinking to do.
Why is this not zooed. BS OP.
 

livingstone

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I wouldn’t say total BS.

I have worked in the UK for the past 25 years. I think rather than an anti Irish sentiment there is a certain amount of resentment and a feeling of betrayal. Betrayal based on an ignorant and patronising notion that the Irish are ‘not really proper foreigners’. I have had people say this to me many times over the years....much to my anyonance but I generally passed it off as a kind of postive ignorance rather than anything malign.

Most brexiteers that I have come across express general sympathy about the negative impact for Ireland, however their attitude is that it’s just unfortunate collateral damage. In their minds their democratic decision is paramount above all and the wider consequences are not their problem. IMO an attitude based on the deluded notion of British exceptionalism and national pride based on their various stands over the centuries against continental consolidation. Hence this low grade sense of grievance at what they see as our betrayal.
It's total BS insofar as there is any negative impact on Irish immigrants in the UK from Varadkar's stance.

Is there some anti-Irish sentiment or ignorance? Sure. Those morons have always been there. The Government's stance on the border has had no material impact on Irish citizens in the UK.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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It's total BS insofar as there is any negative impact on Irish immigrants in the UK from Varadkar's stance.

Is there some anti-Irish sentiment or ignorance? Sure. Those morons have always been there. The Government's stance on the border has had no material impact on Irish citizens in the UK.
I think Brexit has seen a rise in general xenophobia in the UK. Xenophobia was a significant factor behind the vote. When some English see Leo ‘in league’(as they see it)with Jean Claude Junker and Donald Tusk they see that as ‘betrayal’. When they see a small ‘not really a foreign country’ being ‘awkward’ by insisting that they abid to their commitments they see that as the Irish being ‘unreasonable’.

That is the view of many Brexit voters.
 

livingstone

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I think Brexit has seen a rise in general xenophobia in the UK. Xenophobia was a significant factor behind the vote. When some English see Leo ‘in league’(as they see it)with Jean Claude Junker and Donald Tusk they see that as ‘betrayal’. When they see a small ‘not really a foreign country’ being ‘awkward’ by insisting that they abid to their commitments they see that as the Irish being ‘unreasonable’.

That is the view of many Brexit voters.
But as you say, there's been an increase in xenophobia more generally. I have seen no evidence that the Irish are particularly or disproportionately affected by that compared to, say, Poles whose Government would be seen as a bit more helpful to the British. If anything, anecdotally, I would say white people who speak English fluently tend to have seen less of the darkness that Brexit has revealed.

Which sort of throws on its head the idea that Irish people are negatively affected by the Government's position.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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But as you say, there's been an increase in xenophobia more generally. I have seen no evidence that the Irish are particularly or disproportionately affected by that compared to, say, Poles whose Government would be seen as a bit more helpful to the British. If anything, anecdotally, I would say white people who speak English fluently tend to have seen less of the darkness that Brexit has revealed.

Which sort of throws on its head the idea that Irish people are negatively affected by the Government's position.
Yes I suppose the Irish are not so much the target of xenophobes given that many of them don’t consider us to be proper foreigners but that’s the difference between their attitude to Irish versus Poles. The Poles are ‘proper foreigners....any resentment against them is not based on any sense of ‘betrayal’. That notion of betrayal applies to us. Funny in a sense given that IMO Brexit is really an of betrayal itself.....the British turning their backs on their closest neighbours and allies.
 

hiding behind a poster

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Angela Merkel urges Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to soften backstop demands in order to secure Brexit deal - Irish Mirror Online

Angel Merkel Urges Taoiseach to Soften Backstop Demands in Order to Secure Backstop Deal

Looks to me like just coming up to "Crunch Time" that the Krauts have broken ranks. It wasn't meant to play out like this. Can yous remember all along up till three days ago the EU gave assurances that they stood 100% behind Ireland's request for a backstop.
The playbook was supposed to run along the lines of:
Theresa May asks EU for alteration of the backstop
EU tell Thersa May "nothing doing"
Theresa May goes back to Parliament where they all strut and fret their hour upon the stage and then either:
a) Crash out without a deal (Unlikely as the Irish-American lobby have just put out the message of no trade-deal with the U.S. if they harm the "Good Friday Agreement" in any way.
b) Call a new election which could or should enable a majority which will accept the Customs border going down the Irish sea. i.e. Northern Irleand goes its merry way politically as before but the island of Ireland remains inside the EU Customs Union.

This last b) is the only practical and reasonable solution. Arlene and the DUP will have to compromise.

It must come as a blow to Leo Vardkar and the Irish team who have been playing "Mr Nice Guy" all these years trying to be "good little Europeans".

But it comes as a double-blow to Leo as relations have inevitably soured with the Brits, our third biggest trading partner -- in spite of the best efforts of the Irish side to help the UK achieve the softest Brexit possible.
Leo says as much in his reply to Merkel:


It's not something world-shattering to hold an election (the Brits have one every four years), achieve some sort of a majority that supports Ulster remaining in the customs Union... and then the UK can proceed with their very own Brexit. Ulster is not the size of one pimple on the ass of the British economy. It's not even the end of the rail-road line. You have to catch a ferry as well.

Leo must asking himself... all this EU cammeraderie, solidarity and backslappery just up to the time when it's most needed and then Merkel... (and before this the Polish For-Min) come out and tell him to compromise -- on the Backstop insurance policy.
It's time for FF & FG to count up their chips: The people of Ireland have taken in all these EU workers along with the half of Africa and Asia and have given them jobs and houses while we suffer an enormous homeless problem ourselves. The rescue of the bondholders I need not mention.

One wonders how Theresa May managed to pull this one off. Perhaps it could have something to do with the UK being a member of Nato. And recall that Trump wants to loosen his connections with same just at a time when Putin is doing his sabre-rattling out in the Ukraine.

I would suggest that we have some hard thinking to do.
A classic example of the headline not matching the content of the story.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Another point is that I got the impression that many of the Irish community in the UK voted for Brexit...especially those who have lived in the UK for a longtime or 2nd 3rd generation.
 

hiding behind a poster

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Simples, each cow gets GPS tags in the sirloin, the rump, the rib, the shank, the round etc. And of course in individual sausages.
Plus they won't be called sausages, the EU will order that they be called Emulsified High-Fat Offal Tubes. (Copyright, Yes Minister)
 


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