Committee on the Eighth Amendment ‘skewed and unfair’

bactrian

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https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ronan-mullen-mattie-mcgrath-claim-committee-skewed-and-unfair-1.3254034

Ronan Mullen and Mattie McGrath don't like what they are hearing in the Committee . They have decided that it is "skewed and unfair".

it is worthwhile viewing the whole of the afternoon session of the Committee of 27th September

Committee Debate - Meeting of the Joint Committee on Eighth Amendment of the Constitution, Wednesday 27 September 2017 - Webcast Recording - Tithe an Oireachtais

if you cannot be bothered to watch the whole, go to 20:00:45 and watch Ronan Mullen.

He could not dispute any of the evidence put before the Committee , so he decided on ad hominem attacks.

I am a "pro-lifer" and one of the reasons that I am reluctant to admit to my position to my friends, is the weaselly "Ronan Mullen" types who jump on the pro-life wagon. For them conflict is better than reason or listening.

I believe in honest debate. I do not have "all the answers", I need to understand the "Pro-Choice " arguments. In order to do that I have to listen to what they say.

BTW

If you listen ,with an open mind, to the contributions of the three experts , some of their opinions support the position I favour.


Listen to the afternoon and make up your own mind.
 


Half Nelson

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https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ronan-mullen-mattie-mcgrath-claim-committee-skewed-and-unfair-1.3254034

Ronan Mullen and Mattie McGrath don't like what they are hearing in the Committee . They have decided that it is "skewed and unfair".

it is worthwhile viewing the whole of the afternoon session of the Committee of 27th September

Committee Debate - Meeting of the Joint Committee on Eighth Amendment of the Constitution, Wednesday 27 September 2017 - Webcast Recording - Tithe an Oireachtais

if you cannot be bothered to watch the whole, go to 20:00:45 and watch Ronan Mullen.

He could not dispute any of the evidence put before the Committee , so he decided on ad hominem attacks.

I am a "pro-lifer" and one of the reasons that I am reluctant to admit to my position to my friends, is the weaselly "Ronan Mullen" types who jump on the pro-life wagon. For them conflict is better than reason or listening.

I believe in honest debate. I do not have "all the answers", I need to understand the "Pro-Choice " arguments. In order to do that I have to listen to what they say.

BTW

If you listen ,with an open mind, to the contributions of the three experts , some of their opinions support the position I favour.

Listen to the afternoon and make up your own mind.
What does that mean?
 

ger12

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I don't agree. It's skewed and lopsided. And certainly not honest.

Yesterday it was acknowledged we are a safer country for pregnant women than either the UK or US. Irish people have been led to believe that's not the case hence the referendum. People think that what happened in Galway was because of the 8th. It wasn't.

These myths will not be dispelled. The language used is one where abortion is seen as a healthcare procedure. The international speakers pro abortion. The committee weighed heavily on the pro abortion side.

And Mattie and Mullen are ridiculed and dismissed. They should not be part of what is a farce.

The same Irish experts attending that the media rely on since 2012. Mostly pro abortion. That's not honest debate. For a debate two sides are heard equally.
 

wombat

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The same Irish experts attending that the media rely on since 2012. Mostly pro abortion. That's not honest debate. For a debate two sides are heard equally.
Most politicians are debating not whether the 8th should be abolished but how liberal can they be with their proposal to abolish it.
 

Spanner Island

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I don't agree. It's skewed and lopsided. And certainly not honest.

Yesterday it was acknowledged we are a safer country for pregnant women than either the UK or US. Irish people have been led to believe that's not the case hence the referendum. People think that what happened in Galway was because of the 8th. It wasn't.

These myths will not be dispelled. The language used is one where abortion is seen as a healthcare procedure. The international speakers pro abortion. The committee weighed heavily on the pro abortion side.

And Mattie and Mullen are ridiculed and dismissed. They should not be part of what is a farce.

The same Irish experts attending that the media rely on since 2012. Mostly pro abortion. That's not honest debate. For a debate two sides are heard equally.
Pot. Kettle. Black.

I know nobody who is pro abortion but carry on with your bullsh!t.
 

GDPR

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I don't agree. It's skewed and lopsided. And certainly not honest.

Yesterday it was acknowledged we are a safer country for pregnant women than either the UK or US. Irish people have been led to believe that's not the case hence the referendum. People think that what happened in Galway was because of the 8th. It wasn't.

These myths will not be dispelled. The language used is one where abortion is seen as a healthcare procedure. The international speakers pro abortion. The committee weighed heavily on the pro abortion side.

And Mattie and Mullen are ridiculed and dismissed. They should not be part of what is a farce.

The same Irish experts attending that the media rely on since 2012. Mostly pro abortion. That's not honest debate. For a debate two sides are heard equally.
It is a farce, window dressing for a decision already made, and they should resign from it. Let it at least be seen for what it is.
 

Sync

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They claim that the majority of witnesses called before the committee are in favour of liberalising Ireland’s abortion regime.
It's weird that in a world where nearly every country has more liberal abortion laws than Ireland, where the current Irish population consistently poll heavily in favour of liberalising the abortion regime and where the council of GPs have voted in favour of liberalisation that the majority of witnesses called are in favour of it. Super weird.

It would be really helpful if the TDs in question could identify some renowned practicing Irish OBGYNs who are pro-life who they feel have been refused a chance to speak to the committee.
 

wombat

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GDPR

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It's weird that in a world where nearly every country has more liberal abortion laws than Ireland, where the current Irish population consistently poll heavily in favour of liberalising the abortion regime and where the council of GPs have voted in favour of liberalisation that the majority of witnesses called are in favour of it. Super weird.

It would be really helpful if the TDs in question could identify some renowned practicing Irish OBGYNs who are pro-life who they feel have been refused a chance to speak to the committee.
There's no logic there at all.
If the arguments are to be put & judged of the basis of how "popular" abortion is in the rest of the western world, just go ahead and do it now, why bother with a committee & hearings at all?
 

ger12

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Most politicians are debating not whether the 8th should be abolished but how liberal can they be with their proposal to abolish it.
Yep. They've jumped the gun too.
 

ger12

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Spanner Island

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You must lead a very sheltered life.:lol:
I'd like to see a balanced and informative debate about this.

I'm under no illusions that is impossible in Ireland with reactionaries on both extremes.

Most people are in the middle.
 

Sync

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There's no logic there at all.
If the arguments are to be put & judged of the basis of how "popular" abortion is in the rest of the western world, just go ahead and do it now, why bother with a committee & hearings at all?
You can have hearings, but you also can't pretend that there's going to be an even split of practicing medical experts to speak. There isn't. They're not out there. And if you're looking for practicing international OBGYNs who are going to say "No abortion in any cases" you're going to have the same struggle.

And the idea of having 100 people up there bleating "Oh I had an abortion and it was awful" and "Oh I had an abortion and it was great" is so emotive and dumb that I'd rather the TDs were sitting at the side of the road sticking berries up their noses as it would be a more productive use of time.
 

damus

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So essentially certain people who don't agree with or like the views being expressed are questioning the integrity of the medical witnesses who are appearing before the Committee.
 

wombat

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GDPR

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You can have hearings, but you also can't pretend that there's going to be an even split of practicing medical experts to speak. There isn't. They're not out there.
You can have an even split if you want one, there's more than enough on either side for that.
 

GDPR

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So essentially certain people who don't agree with the views being expressed are questioning the integrity of the pro abortion medical witnesses who are appearing before the Committee.
My bold
And not so much integrity as they're all going to be biased (and they are) one way or the other, more the numbers.
Just like the last committee on abortion here, this committee is set up to get a predetermined result and get it they will.
 

wombat

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You can have hearings, but you also can't pretend that there's going to be an even split of practicing medical experts to speak. There isn't. They're not out there. And if you're looking for practicing international OBGYNs who are going to say "No abortion in any cases" you're going to have the same struggle.
That is possible but its also possible to hear medics describe abortions in clinical detail, especially late term.
 

wombat

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So essentially certain people who don't agree with or like the views being expressed are questioning the integrity of the medical witnesses who are appearing before the Committee.
One person's integrity is another's bias.
 

ger12

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It's weird that in a world where nearly every country has more liberal abortion laws than Ireland, where the current Irish population consistently poll heavily in favour of liberalising the abortion regime and where the council of GPs have voted in favour of liberalisation that the majority of witnesses called are in favour of it. Super weird.

It would be really helpful if the TDs in question could identify some renowned practicing Irish OBGYNs who are pro-life who they feel have been refused a chance to speak to the committee.
You're spinning there. The polls may be in favour of a more liberalisation, it's really only for the hard cases (FFA/rape). Outside of that and it's certainly not looking like gaining support.

The committee are moving to deliver something much more "liberal" than that.

As for other countries, we were the first country in the world to vote in favour of SSM, the world imo should follow our lead. Perhaps should we retain the 8th, we can show the countries you want to impress, that we are liberal in the truest sense of the word, acknowledging rights of humans before they're born.
 


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