Compensation culture

Baron von Biffo

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Trauma used to mean something very specific, like physical injuries after a car accident.
That's an archaic understanding or the word. According to The Chambers Dictionary of Etymology its use to indicate a psychological injury was first recorded as far back as 1894.

I'm more inclined to believe someone who claims they were psychologically "traumatised" by something if they aren't putting in a big claim. Like I said, when all this fuss dies down, he is made for life. Can settle down with his fiancé, buy a house mortgage-free. He has been exceedingly and excessively generously compensated for something that I believe has no lasting effects. Of course, he'll say "nothing would ever compensate for what happened etc" but it's my opinion that is BS. He could have co-operated with the arrest. In most countries, even if an arrest is mistaken, you probably don't get compensated at all, if it's wrongful, but done in good faith.
An arrest cannot be wrongful, but done in good faith. It's the lack of good faith that makes it wrongful.
 


Herr Rommel

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Another case, a young fella fall over and break his wrist, who do we blamr the football
Hopefully this action will send a strong message regarding false claims.

On a personal level what an absolute wimp of a young fella
 

Baron von Biffo

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You know what I meant. An arrest of someone who was innocent of the offense he was suspected (in good faith) of committing.
I only know what you post and yet again you're showing that you don't understand what wrongful arrest means.

Suppose the gardaí are investigating an assault and they encounter someone running from the scene covered in blood and that person fails to explain his actions. They might reasonably arrest him on suspicion.

If it subsequently emerges that he wasn't the attacker but was also a victim who was fleeing for his own safety and was unable to respond because he was in shock that doesn't mean he was wrongfully arrested.

To be a wrongful there must be no reasonable cause to make the arrest. After a case lasting 11 days the jury found that that's what happened here.
 

Orbit v2

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You know what I meant. An arrest of someone who was innocent of the offense he was suspected (in good faith) of committing.
I only know what you post and yet again you're showing that you don't understand what wrongful arrest means.
Your example below doesn't contradict what I said above.
Suppose the gardaí are investigating an assault and they encounter someone running from the scene covered in blood and that person fails to explain his actions. They might reasonably arrest him on suspicion.

If it subsequently emerges that he wasn't the attacker but was also a victim who was fleeing for his own safety and was unable to respond because he was in shock that doesn't mean he was wrongfully arrested.

To be a wrongful there must be no reasonable cause to make the arrest.
I understand all that.
After a case lasting 11 days the jury found that that's what happened here.
This is what they found:

"the jury found the actions of gardaí were not reasonably necessary for the purpose of effecting a lawful arrest of Mr Jennings in good faith for the offences of breach of the peace and being drunk and disorderly."

I've already accepted that such an arrest would be unreasonable for breach of the peace, and drunk and disorderly. It's obviously absurd to enter someone's house and arrest them for the above offence. Had they arrested him on suspicion of committing assault causing serious harm, then it might not have been unreasonable and that was in fact the real reason they arrested him

In any case, the issue here is the injury caused relative to the size of the award, not the fact of an award per-se.
 

Baron von Biffo

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[...]

This is what they found:

"the jury found the actions of gardaí were not reasonably necessary for the purpose of effecting a lawful arrest of Mr Jennings in good faith for the offences of breach of the peace and being drunk and disorderly."

I've already accepted that such an arrest would be unreasonable for breach of the peace, and drunk and disorderly. It's obviously absurd to enter someone's house and arrest them for the above offence. Had they arrested him on suspicion of committing assault causing serious harm, then it might not have been unreasonable and that was in fact the real reason they arrested him
The reason they arrested him is the reason listed in the formal record and we cannot go beyond that.

In any case, the issue here is the injury caused relative to the size of the award, not the fact of an award per-se.
The award had 2 components, general and exemplary damages. The General damages are to compensate for the injury and the exemplary damages are to serve as a deterrent to prevent the gardaí repeating what happened here.

As I said earlier, I think the general damages could have been reduced but the exemplary damages should have been greater.
 

Orbit v2

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The reason they arrested him is the reason listed in the formal record and we cannot go beyond that.
Of course we can. We can look at the sequence of events and see that a terrible assault took place against his partner, and gardai formed the view that he might have been responsible for it.

They didn't just randomly enter his house in order to check if he was being drunk and disorderly indoors on his tod .. :rolleyes:

The award had 2 components, general and exemplary damages. The General damages are to compensate for the injury and the exemplary damages are to serve as a deterrent to prevent the gardaí repeating what happened here.

As I said earlier, I think the general damages could have been reduced but the exemplary damages should have been greater.
There was a quite lengthy interview with the complainant's solicitor on RTE radio 1 this evening, which I missed most of, but as far as I could tell, he was as surprised as anyone at the size of the award. I need to confirm this, but you might be in a minority if it's your belief that the overall level was right.

By the way, this award came from a jury not a judge. I didn't realise that juries still make compensation awards in some cases. While I have faith in the jury system for determining what is and isn't fact, in criminal cases, I think this award should be appealed and brought down to something more realistic.
 
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galteeman

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This case is totally unlike the Bailey case or the other cases.

- The man did not resist arrest.
- The man was totally innocent
- He was at home safe in bed
- He was dragged from his bed based on nothing
- He was falsely accussed of beating his partner
- He was assaulted, that's the Pepper spray, at a minimum
- He was hosed down in a yard with water, I consider that assault too, certainly it's akin to treating a man like a dog
- He was put, wrongly, into a cell in wet clothing

The Gardai were totally at fault here. It could quite easily have gone a very different way for him if the culprit had not been found. The Gardai should have repercussions for this. And if this case is in any way indicative of how Gardai behave than shame on them, and worse, hope it is never you. He deserved compensaiton for:

- His ordeal
- His treatment, pepper spray, water hose, urine cell, wet clothing
- False accussation
- Being dragged from his bed
- The language

This is not a mere pen pusher error. It's exceedingly serious that the Gardai think they can act this way. This time they didn't get away with it.

I'm glad the award was high. The message has to go out to the Gardai that they should not just up hold the law, they, as a state agency, have to be exemplary in their treatment of people.
How do you know he was dragged from bed? It said he went out into the street with them.
Also it said they were washing his eyes after the pepper spray using a hose.
Anyways do you think the Gardai in question will worry about the compo he receives seeing as they don't have to pay it?
We the taxpayer are paying it right? We are getting the punishment.
You are glad we have to pay a higher amount is that what you are saying?
It's clearly a ridiculous award. I wish I was mistakenly pepper sprayed and accused of a horrible crime if I could get that much and retire early to a life of playing golf.
 

Baron von Biffo

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Of course we can. We can look at the sequence of events and see that a terrible assault took place against his partner, and gardai formed the view that he might have been responsible for it.
You can speculate as much as you like but legally he was arrested for the matters that he was told were the reason for his arrest.

They didn't just randomly enter his house in order to check if he was being drunk and disorderly indoors on his tod .. :rolleyes:
They entered his fiancée's house because she expressed concern for his safety as she believed that her assailant had stolen her keys.

There was a quite lengthy interview with the complainant's solicitor on RTE radio 1 this evening, which I missed most of, but as far as I could tell, he was as surprised as anyone at the size of the award. I need to confirm this, but you might be in a minority if it's your belief that the overall level was right.
Being in the minority isn't a novel position for anyone who seeks to look even a millimetre beyond reflexive hysteria in these things.

By the way, this award came from a jury not a judge. I didn't realise that juries still make compensation awards in some cases. While I have faith in the jury system for determining what is and isn't fact, in criminal cases, I think this award should be appealed and brought down to something more realistic.
You probably don't need to worry on that score. I suspect that the State will appeal, at least against the level of the award. Given the current disquiet about compensation my guess would be that it will be cut. however inappropriate that outcome would be in the circumstances.
 

Baron von Biffo

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How do you know he was dragged from bed? It said he went out into the street with them.
From the story you linked earlier:-

"She refused to go to hospital in an ambulance until gardai checked on Mr Jennings first. She feared her attacker had got the keys to her apartment where a short time earlier she had left Mr Jennings sleeping.

Mr Jenning said his "nightmare" started when he was woken the apartment by three gardai, who asked him to go out to see his girlfriend who was sitting in the ambulance."


Also it said they were washing his eyes after the pepper spray using a hose.
Surely you're not defending the use of a garden hose, outdoors, in freezing temperatures, as an appropriate way to treat pepper sprayed eyes?

Anyways do you think the Gardai in question will worry about the compo he receives seeing as they don't have to pay it?
We the taxpayer are paying it right? We are getting the punishment.
You are glad we have to pay a higher amount is that what you are saying?
It's clearly a ridiculous award. I wish I was mistakenly pepper sprayed and accused of a horrible crime if I could get that much and retire early to a life of playing golf.
The individual officers weren't sued. It was the State and the Commissioner.
 

Fritzbox

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Why did the Gardai use the pepper spray '3 times' if had not been resisting arrest?
 

Ardillaun

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Again it wasn't a nice thing to happen, and there should be disciplinary consequences for the gardai involved, but applying the usual 'orbit test' - would you put yourself through it in return for a €1.1 million lotto win. Be taken out of your bed and locked in a cell for a few hours. It's stupid money. Of course you would for half of it even.
The award is excessive but by 2019 Paddy compo standards it’s not too out of line
 

Orbit v2

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Being in the minority isn't a novel position for anyone who seeks to look even a millimetre beyond reflexive hysteria in these things.
What "reflexive hysteria"? Is questioning this hysterical?

By the way, the interview with the plaintiffs solicitor is up on RTE website and he said the plaintiff was surprised by the award, and everybody was surprised by it.

Everybody except you it seems :LOL:
 


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