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Compulsory Catholicism for the dead


Old Mr Grouser

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Have you seen "Row over 'Sacred Heart' statue at Church of Ireland cemetery", a news-report in the Belfast Telegraph

A row has erupted over the erection of a sculpture of the Sacred Heart behind a table , purportedly depicting the Last Supper, in a Church of Ireland cemetery that contains both Catholic and Protestant graves.

It was unveiled at an ecumenical service marking the completion of a major community restoration project on the old Killenummery Graveyard near Dromahair in Leitrim.

The Church of Ireland aren't happy but the local Catholic priest Father Vinnie Connaughton does not believe the sculpture should be removed.

He thinks that the argument is unimportant. "I have not had one letter or phone-call of complaint about it," he said.
 

idle tim

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Have you seen "Row over 'Sacred Heart' statue at Church of Ireland cemetery", a news-report in the Belfast Telegraph

A row has erupted over the erection of a sculpture of the Sacred Heart behind a table , purportedly depicting the Last Supper, in a Church of Ireland cemetery that contains both Catholic and Protestant graves.

It was unveiled at an ecumenical service marking the completion of a major community restoration project on the old Killenummery Graveyard near Dromahair in Leitrim.

The Church of Ireland aren't happy but the local Catholic priest Father Vinnie Connaughton does not believe the sculpture should be removed.

He thinks that the argument is unimportant. "I have not had one letter or phone-call of complaint about it," he said.
Good thread OMG,should make for an interesting debate,personally i think if rules and regulations have been broken then those responsible must make amends.
 

Sync

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If it's your property and you didn't give permission for it to go up and don't want it there, just remove it.
 

disgruntledcitizen

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If it's your property and you didn't give permission for it to go up and don't want it there, just remove it.
whilst its not as simple as that i broadly agree, it is not in keeping with the ethos of the CoI and as its a CoI grave yard its traditions and rights should be respected
 

Old Mr Grouser

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This is a terrible situation.

I remember once a priest saying, and very proudly, that the Catholic Church is the only organisation in the world that does not lose members by death - Catholics here on Earth are the Church Militant, Catholics in Purgatory are the Church Suffering, and Catholics in Heaven are the Church Triumphant - and they are all Catholics.

So there's never any opt-out. You can't opt-out in life, and similarly neither can you can't opt-out in death by way of your funeral arrangements.

The Killenummery parish priest, Father Connaughton, is reported as saying that there are Roman Catholic people buried there and "We have to look at the majority too".

So now a Church of Ireland cemetery is becoming an ecumenical cemetery 'that contains both Catholic and Protestant graves'.

And how long before it will become a Catholic cemetery?
 
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west'sawake

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As a committed Catholic who understands Protestant wariness of what they see as our attachment to 'craven images', images which we do not worship but rather use to help us focus on the truth of the total sacrificial nature of Christ's suffering, something they accept too; it does smack of gross insensivity and disrespect for the C of I tradition in placing the sculpture in what is in effect a grave yard belonging to their tradition. However removing it now would I think be an over reaction and be worse than the original offence, considering there are Catholics buried there as well.


A really difficult one to handle this.
 
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A Time for Every Purpose

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As a committed Catholic who understands Protestant'swariness of what they see as our attachment to 'craven images', images which we do not worship but rather useCa to help us focus on the truth of the total sacrificial nature of Christ's suffering, something they accept too; it does smack of gross insensivity and disrespect for the C of I tradition in placing the sculpture in what is in effect a grave yard belonging to their tradition. However removing it now would I think be an over reaction and be worse that the original offence, considering there are Catholics buried there as well.


A really difficult one to handle this.
I think, that since their founder was a most unholy man ,[roots matter]
then they are just unholy hypocites.
No group of people are more materialist and PRAGMATIC in their beliefs,
no idealism there.
 

Cruimh

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As a committed Catholic who understands Protestant'swariness of what they see as our attachment to 'craven images', images which we do not worship but rather useCa to help us focus on the truth of the total sacrificial nature of Christ's suffering, something they accept too; it does smack of gross insensivity and disrespect for the C of I tradition in placing the sculpture in what is in effect a grave yard belonging to their tradition. However removing it now would I think be an over reaction and be worse that the original offence, considering there are Catholics buried there as well.


A really difficult one to handle this.
It's an old graveyard - this may mainly be a jurisdictional argument rather than one of great practical significance. The C of I apparently has control of a number of cemetaries from the past ( establishment of the Church and all that ) - this cemetary may not have been used recently.
 

SevenStars

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As a committed Catholic who understands Protestant wariness of what they see as our attachment to 'craven images', images which we do not worship but rather use to help us focus on the truth of the total sacrificial nature of Christ's suffering, something they accept too; it does smack of gross insensivity and disrespect for the C of I tradition in placing the sculpture in what is in effect a grave yard belonging to their tradition. However removing it now would I think be an over reaction and be worse than the original offence, considering there are Catholics buried there as well.


A really difficult one to handle this.
You dont get the situation at all....Either that or you are trolling.

The vast majiority of the Church of Ireland would not object to visual representation of Christ. Infact it seems that putting a statue of Christ there was agreed by everyone.

However an image of the "sacred Heart" is distrubing to all non-Roman Catholic Christians whether Reformed, Orthodox or Non-Chalcedonian. It has no Biblical support and is contarary to both reason and tradition as laid down in early Church councils. Putting that image there was a deliberate troll designed to say "FU" to the local Church of Ireland members.

"To the Lord Jesus Christ as to one person, as the God-man it is fitting to give a single inseparable worship, both according to Divinity and according to Humanity, precisely because both natures are inseparably united in Him. The decree of the Fathers of the Fifth Ecumenical Council (the Ninth Canon against Heretics) reads: "If anyone shall take the expression, Christ ought to be worshipped in His two natures, in the sense that he wishes to introduce thus two adorations, the one in special relation to God the Word and the other as pertaining to the Man… and does not venerate, by one adoration, God the Word made man, together with His flesh, as the Holy Church has taught from the beginning: let him be anathema" (Eerdmans, Seven Ecumenical Councils, p. 314)."

"In connection with this decree of the Council it may be seen how out of harmony with the spirit and practice of the Church is the cult of the "sacred heart of Jesus" which has been introduced into the Roman Catholic Church. Although the above-cited decree of the Fifth Ecumenical Council touches only on the separate worship of the Divinity and the Humanity of the Saviour, it still indirectly tells us that in general the veneration and worship of Christ should be directed to Him as a whole and not to parts of His Being; it must be one. Even if by "heart" we should understand the Saviour’s love itself, still neither in the Old Testament nor in the New was there ever a custom to worship separately the love of God, or His wisdom, His creative or providential power, or His sanctity. All the more must one say this concerning the parts of His bodily nature. There is something unnatural in the separation of the heart from the general bodily nature of the Lord for the purpose of prayer, contrition and worship before Him. Even in the ordinary relationships of life, no matter how much a man might be attached to another — for example, a mother to a child — he would never refer his attachment to the heart of the beloved person, but will refer it to the given person as a whole."

Fr Michael Pomazansky.
 

SevenStars

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I think, that since their founder was a most unholy man ,[roots matter]
then they are just unholy hypocites.
No group of people are more materialist and PRAGMATIC in their beliefs,
no idealism there.
Uh....Actually King Henry the VIII died basically a Roman Catholic :)eek:).

The ACTUAL English Reformation was not of his doing.
 

slippy wicket

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You dont get the situation at all....Either that or you are trolling.

The vast majiority of the Church of Ireland would not object to visual representation of Christ. Infact it seems that putting a statue of Christ there was agreed by everyone.

However an image of the "sacred Heart" is distrubing to all non-Roman Catholic Christians whether Reformed, Orthodox or Non-Chalcedonian. It has no Biblical support and is contarary to both reason and tradition as laid down in early Church councils. Putting that image there was a deliberate troll designed to say "FU" to the local Church of Ireland members.

"To the Lord Jesus Christ as to one person, as the God-man it is fitting to give a single inseparable worship, both according to Divinity and according to Humanity, precisely because both natures are inseparably united in Him. The decree of the Fathers of the Fifth Ecumenical Council (the Ninth Canon against Heretics) reads: "If anyone shall take the expression, Christ ought to be worshipped in His two natures, in the sense that he wishes to introduce thus two adorations, the one in special relation to God the Word and the other as pertaining to the Man… and does not venerate, by one adoration, God the Word made man, together with His flesh, as the Holy Church has taught from the beginning: let him be anathema" (Eerdmans, Seven Ecumenical Councils, p. 314)."

"In connection with this decree of the Council it may be seen how out of harmony with the spirit and practice of the Church is the cult of the "sacred heart of Jesus" which has been introduced into the Roman Catholic Church. Although the above-cited decree of the Fifth Ecumenical Council touches only on the separate worship of the Divinity and the Humanity of the Saviour, it still indirectly tells us that in general the veneration and worship of Christ should be directed to Him as a whole and not to parts of His Being; it must be one. Even if by "heart" we should understand the Saviour’s love itself, still neither in the Old Testament nor in the New was there ever a custom to worship separately the love of God, or His wisdom, His creative or providential power, or His sanctity. All the more must one say this concerning the parts of His bodily nature. There is something unnatural in the separation of the heart from the general bodily nature of the Lord for the purpose of prayer, contrition and worship before Him. Even in the ordinary relationships of life, no matter how much a man might be attached to another — for example, a mother to a child — he would never refer his attachment to the heart of the beloved person, but will refer it to the given person as a whole."

Fr Michael Pomazansky.
Fair point Seven, I have relatives in that parish, and they are not bothered by the statue at all, but i would be sure that some of the older people would not approve of it.
On a seperate point, does it look like the statue has a big plate of quarter pounders in front of it.
 

SevenStars

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Fair point Seven, I have relatives in that parish, and they are not bothered by the statue at all, but i would be sure that some of the older people would not approve of it.
On a seperate point, does it look like the statue has a big plate of quarter pounders in front of it.
The whole Sacred Heart thing I find weird....If it was just a normal statue or whatever I wouldnt mind. Just imposing something that is Roman Catholic and only Roman Catholic is trolling to my mind given the situation.

But The Belfast Telegraph isnt beyond trolling itself....
 

White Horse

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If this Church Of Ireland property, why are local Catholics the ones restoring and rennovating the grounds?

Is there a local Church Of Ireland parish in operation or is this graveyard one of the many rural COI properties that the COI have abandonned?
 

Cruimh

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If this Church Of Ireland property, why are local Catholics the ones restoring and rennovating the grounds?

Is there a local Church Of Ireland parish in operation or is this graveyard one of the many rural COI properties that the COI have abandonned?
It's a community restoration project.

The COI for historical reasons have a lot of old graveyards in their care.
 

Toland

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As a committed Catholic who understands Protestant wariness of what they see as our attachment to 'craven images', images which we do not worship but rather use to help us focus on the truth of the total sacrificial nature of Christ's suffering, something they accept too; it does smack of gross insensivity and disrespect for the C of I tradition in placing the sculpture in what is in effect a grave yard belonging to their tradition. However removing it now would I think be an over reaction and be worse than the original offence, considering there are Catholics buried there as well.


A really difficult one to handle this.
I'm with Sync on this. Your place? Someone put something there you don't want. Get rid of it.

I'd go further. If you know who put it there without your go-ahead. Insist the he, she or it get rid of it at their own expense and to your satisfaction immediately. There's far too muc pussyfooting around intolerant people's religious sensitivities.
 

SevenStars

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I'm with Sync on this. Your place? Someone put something there you don't want. Get rid of it.

I'd go further. If you know who put it there without your go-ahead. Insist the he, she or it get rid of it at their own expense and to your satisfaction immediately. There's far too muc pussyfooting around intolerant people's religious sensitivities.
Yes fair enough in theory...But a for a small isolated community it might not be that easy in practise...You saw West Awakes answer...Asking them to remove it will cause them to be insulted. The more I think about the more nastier it all seems.
 

Green eyed monster

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As a committed Catholic who understands Protestant wariness of what they see as our attachment to 'craven images', images which we do not worship but rather use to help us focus on the truth of the total sacrificial nature of Christ's suffering, something they accept too; it does smack of gross insensivity and disrespect for the C of I tradition in placing the sculpture in what is in effect a grave yard belonging to their tradition. However removing it now would I think be an over reaction and be worse than the original offence, considering there are Catholics buried there as well.


A really difficult one to handle this.
The intolerance of some Protestants towards the 'graven image' must have had a very dark and controversial history on this island, the old Irish churches and graveyards must have been splendidly decorated with all manner of awesome and wonderful 'graven images' until the New English came. It was said that Cromwell could not abide even one small icon anywhere, however out of reach he would insist on sending his men up to smash it to pieces. I saw a documentary once in which was shown a survived broken tombmarker, gloriously decorated piece of stone showing a skeletal figure that had been ripped up and thrown into a nearby river by Cromwell's forces.

Given the history and given modern standards of tolerance, given also how the COI came into the possession of many old places and finally given the fact that both Catholics and Protestants are interred here i think a little leeway should be granted by the COI.
 

Toland

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Yes fair enough in theory...But a for a small isolated community it might not be that easy in practise...You saw West Awakes answer...Asking them to remove it will cause them to be insulted. The more I think about the more nastier it all seems.
Why all the sensitivity? Shag them. There's no way there action were not deliberate.

Oh I see. It's fear of retaliatory violence.

Let's have the fellas that put the two-fingers symbol up take it down themselves.

Now.
 

Toland

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The intolerance of some Protestants towards the 'graven image' must have had a very dark and controversial history on this island, the old Irish churches and graveyards must have been splendidly decorated with all manner of awesome and wonderful 'graven images' until the New English came. It was said that Cromwell could not abide even one small icon anywhere, however out of reach he would insist on sending his men up to smash it to pieces. I saw a documentary once in which was shown a survived broken tombmarker, gloriously decorated piece of stone showing a skeletal figure that had been ripped up and thrown into a nearby river by Cromwell's forces.

Given the history and given modern standards of tolerance, given also how the COI came into the possession of many old places and finally given the fact that both Catholics and Protestants are interred here i think a little leeway should be granted by the COI.
Oh dear sweet suffering jesus. The effing sins of the fathers argument!
 
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