Connected Citizens - from a Northern Protestant Irishman

McSlaggart

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For example does the NHS adopt the HSE model and do people in NI accept/know that. Or does the HSE accept the NHS model and how much money and time does that take.

That’s not an argument against unification but it’s an argument against the Farage-style insistence that something really complex is simple.
The hospital system on the Island of Ireland is already becoming effectively a single unit. How it is funded will be up to the people at the time of unification. Neither the NHS or the HSE are great ways to proceed.

What you need to do is point out the systems at present that are not already becoming effectively joined?

The police? increasing cross border activity.

The ??? do you think would be a major issue?
 


livingstone

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Wouldn't an UI repudiate the GFA. An UI would surely require a new treaty thereby invalidating the GFA.

How many treaties would need to be signed between Ireland and the UK. The breakup of Czechoslovakia required 3 treaties and 21,000 legal documents.
That would be a question for negotiation. There's nothing automatic about the GFA being repudiated in the event of a vote for a united Ireland.
 

livingstone

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???

recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland;

GFA

What makes you think the current setup in Northern Ireland would still have to exist?
They could be negotiated away, of course.

But none of that is automatic with a vote for a united Ireland. It would take the UK and Ireland to agree together to replace the GFA. If they don't reach agreement to do that that, then by default it continues.
 

McSlaggart

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They could be negotiated away, of course.

But none of that is automatic with a vote for a united Ireland. It would take the UK and Ireland to agree together to replace the GFA. If they don't reach agreement to do that that, then by default it continues.

?? If their is a vote for a united Ireland then the UK will be leaving the Island.

The UK will have no business in Ireland after such a vote.
 

livingstone

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?? If their is a vote for a united Ireland then the UK will be leaving the Island.

The UK will have no business in Ireland after such a vote.
Sorry but that's wrong. The UK will have the same interest in NI that Ireland does now - specifically, it will be the home of a million of its citizens (plus more with a right under international law to hold British citizenship). The UK, as the other party to the GFA, will need to agree any changes or end to it. That is simply a matter of international law.

Now, maybe the UK will just say let's rip up the GFA and Irish unity is the end of the story. The reality though is that unity would be just the beginning of a new phase in the story of reconciling competing views about the preferred constitutional status of NI.

Assuming that the NI Executive and Assembly, for example, simply don't exist in a united Ireland makes no sense. Perhaps they don't - but that is just another example of the complexity that needs to be worked through, and is no where near as simple as you claim.
 

McSlaggart

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Sorry but that's wrong. The UK will have the same interest in NI that Ireland does now - specifically, it will be the home of a million of its citizens (plus more with a right under international law to hold British citizenship). The UK, as the other party to the GFA, will need to agree any changes or end to it. That is simply a matter of international law.

Now, maybe the UK will just say let's rip up the GFA and Irish unity is the end of the story. The reality though is that unity would be just the beginning of a new phase in the story of reconciling competing views about the preferred constitutional status of NI.

Assuming that the NI Executive and Assembly, for example, simply don't exist in a united Ireland makes no sense. Perhaps they don't - but that is just another example of the complexity that needs to be worked through, and is no where near as simple as you claim.

The UK will have the same rights to look after its citizens as they do in Spain.

Northern Ireland will be dead. They may put a regional government in Belfast but if they did it would have to include Donegal.
 

Talk Back

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Sorry but that's wrong. The UK will have the same interest in NI that Ireland does now - specifically, it will be the home of a million of its citizens (plus more with a right under international law to hold British citizenship). The UK, as the other party to the GFA, will need to agree any changes or end to it. That is simply a matter of international law.

Now, maybe the UK will just say let's rip up the GFA and Irish unity is the end of the story. The reality though is that unity would be just the beginning of a new phase in the story of reconciling competing views about the preferred constitutional status of NI.

Assuming that the NI Executive and Assembly, for example, simply don't exist in a united Ireland makes no sense. Perhaps they don't - but that is just another example of the complexity that needs to be worked through, and is no where near as simple as you claim.
You seem a tad confused - once the parasite that is England is voted out of Ireland, that's it - end of story as far as that country interfering in the affairs of Ireland ever again.
 

livingstone

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The UK will have the same rights to look after its citizens as they do in Spain.

Northern Ireland will be dead. They may put a regional government in Belfast but if they did it would have to include Donegal.
Again this isn’t something you or Ireland gets to determine.

As a matter of international law, the GFA continues unless and until Ireland and the UK agree to change it.
 

Dame_Enda

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I hope "Northern Irish" can form the basis for a transition into Irish identity for Northern Unionists, rather than a separate national identity from the 26 counties.
 

omgsquared

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Sure what is the point of having a vote. There was an all Ireland vote in the early 20th centurty under the British and the majority of the people voted for independence. However a minority group took up arms and threathened violence so the Brits ignored their own democratic process..
 

McSlaggart

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Again this isn’t something you or Ireland gets to determine.

As a matter of international law, the GFA continues unless and until Ireland and the UK agree to change it.
"The Belfast Agreement is also known as the Good Friday Agreement, because it was reached on Good Friday, 10 April 1998. It was a peace agreement between the British and Irish governments, and most of the political parties in Northern Ireland, on how Northern Ireland should be governed. "

That is the terms of the good Friday agreement.
 

livingstone

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"The Belfast Agreement is also known as the Good Friday Agreement, because it was reached on Good Friday, 10 April 1998. It was a peace agreement between the British and Irish governments, and most of the political parties in Northern Ireland, on how Northern Ireland should be governed. "

That is the terms of the good Friday agreement.
Yes. None of that contradicts what I've said which is that the GFA remains in place under international law unless and until both parties to the agreement agree to change or repudiate it.
 

McSlaggart

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Yes. None of that contradicts what I've said which is that the GFA remains in place under international law unless and until both parties to the agreement agree to change or repudiate it.

If northern Ireland no longer exists then the GFA will not apply? You are asserting something without giving any supporting evidence.

No Northern Ireland No GFA.
 

livingstone

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If northern Ireland no longer exists then the GFA will not apply? You are asserting something without giving any supporting evidence.

No Northern Ireland No GFA.
The consequence of a vote for Irish unity doesn't necessarily mean NI ceases to exist. The GFA does not say that is the case. There is nothing automatic about the people of NI voting for a united Ireland meaning that NI ceases to exist as an entity. All it means is that it would be part of the Ireland rather than the United Kingdom.

So if NI votes to leave the UK and join a united Ireland, it would be a matter for agreement between Ireland and the UK whether the GFA should be replaced and if so, with what.
 

McSlaggart

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The consequence of a vote for Irish unity doesn't necessarily mean NI ceases to exist. The GFA does not say that is the case. There is nothing automatic about the people of NI voting for a united Ireland meaning that NI ceases to exist as an entity. All it means is that it would be part of the Ireland rather than the United Kingdom.

So if NI votes to leave the UK and join a united Ireland, it would be a matter for agreement between Ireland and the UK whether the GFA should be replaced and if so, with what.
Firstly if you had a united Ireland why would you not include Donegal as part of the north?
 

livingstone

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Firstly if you had a united Ireland why would you not include Donegal as part of the north?
Because it is not currently part of it.

Look, there is now a defined entity called Northern Ireland. It is part of the UK. The GFA recognised its existence, created specific governance structures for it and recognised that its people are entitled to be British, Irish or Both. It also recognised that its people could choose to be, constitutionally, part of Ireland rather than the UK.

But in all of that, at no point does the GFA say that the entity of NI will cease to exist within a united Ireland, or that its governance arrangements will come to an end. Nor does it say that the GFA itself will come to an end.

So whatever you might think SHOULD happen, that will be a matter for agreement between Ireland and the UK, as parties to the GFA. Without agreement, the GFA stands under international law.
 

McSlaggart

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But in all of that, at no point does the GFA say that the entity of NI will cease to exist within a united Ireland, or that its governance arrangements will come to an end. Nor does it say that the GFA itself will come to an end.

So whatever you might think SHOULD happen, that will be a matter for agreement between Ireland and the UK, as parties to the GFA. Without agreement, the GFA stands under international law.
This is what is actually in the agreement:

"On the constitutional question of whether Northern Ireland should remain in the UK or become part of a united Ireland, it was agreed that there would be no change without the consent of the majority. This is called the 'principle of consent'. Majority opinion in the future could be tested by referendum."

Now currently their is no regional administrations in Ireland. If their was regional administrations for say the republic of Cork then one could make an argument for Northern Ireland existing.

If you did want northern Ireland to exist then what argument would you have for not including Donegal in it????
 

livingstone

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This is what is actually in the agreement:

"On the constitutional question of whether Northern Ireland should remain in the UK or become part of a united Ireland, it was agreed that there would be no change without the consent of the majority. This is called the 'principle of consent'. Majority opinion in the future could be tested by referendum."

Now currently their is no regional administrations in Ireland. If their was regional administrations for say the republic of Cork then one could make an argument for Northern Ireland existing.

If you did want northern Ireland to exist then what argument would you have for not including Donegal in it????
Look, this isn't about what I want to what you want. This is about what the default will be in the absence of any express agreement to the contrary.

And the default is that Northern Ireland will continue as an entity, the GFA will continue to be a binding international treaty, and the institutions it creates will continue to exist.

Now maybe there will be agreement to change all of that. But your assumption that that is automatic, or simple, or will not need complex negotiations, is wide of the mark.
 

McSlaggart

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Look, this isn't about what I want to what you want. This is about what the default will be in the absence of any express agreement to the contrary.
??? Do you see the agreement its explicitly says "become part of a united Ireland"


FYI:

"United Ireland (also referred to as Irish reunification)[1][2][3] is the proposition that all of Ireland should be a single sovereign state."

wikipedia
 

livingstone

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??? Do you see the agreement its explicitly says "become part of a united Ireland"

FYI:

"United Ireland (also referred to as Irish reunification)[1][2][3] is the proposition that all of Ireland should be a single sovereign state."

wikipedia
Firstly, you really need to do better than use Wikipedia as your source of definitions in a discussion about international law.

Secondly, again, nothing you posted proves what you think it does. Northern Ireland being part of a united Ireland does not mean it automatically ceases to exist as an entity. We know this because it exists as a distinct entity within a united UK. We know that Bavaria exists as a distinct entity within a united Germany. We know that Texas exists as an entity within a united US.

The point is that there is nothing incongruent about subnational entities existing with their own governance arrangements within single, united countries. You seem to be confusing 'united Ireland' with 'unitary state'. There is nothing in the GFA that makes it automatic that a united Ireland would be a unitary state.
 


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