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Consultants who do they think they are?


partnership

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Feb 2, 2011
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So the IHCA who represent consultants are not going to turn up at the labour court talks - turning their faces against the state machinery that all the other plebs have to adhere to. Why because they want to protect their individual contracts.
Mr Varley head of the IHCA said that two weeks ago IHCA members had voted overwhelmingly not to enter into collective agreements which could alter consultants' existing individual legally binding contracts without their personal consent.

The question I have is if they are individual contracts and cannot have a collective agreement then how can they be protected by what is a collective agreement in the croke park agreement?

From my own knowledge of health the consultants and doctors are one of the only groups of staff not to engage in major change despite what they might think.
 

nakatomi

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So the IHCA who represent consultants are not going to turn up at the labour court talks - turning their faces against the state machinery that all the other plebs have to adhere to. Why because they want to protect their individual contracts.
Mr Varley head of the IHCA said that two weeks ago IHCA members had voted overwhelmingly not to enter into collective agreements which could alter consultants' existing individual legally binding contracts without their personal consent.

The question I have is if they are individual contracts and cannot have a collective agreement then how can they be protected by what is a collective agreement in the croke park agreement?

From my own knowledge of health the consultants and doctors are one of the only groups of staff not to engage in major change despite what they might think.
Would you like to give us some examples of how consultants have not engaged in major change ( from your own knowledge)?

After all they have the lowest absenteeism rate of any group, it would show some dedication towards their patients so I am curious how they have not engaged.
 

Jackass

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The consultants know what the problems are in the Health Service/HSE and they do not want to see it being dragged down the gutter with incompetent overpaid advisers, uselees manages who do more work on the golf course, and a Figurehead who mistakes a sick note for the euro note, and who's only interest is to privatise the Health Service
 

skiii

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In the 1980's Ronald Reagan (of whom I am not a fan) fired all the nation's air traffic controllers when they threatened to strike.

I'd love to see the gov fire all the consultants. Just sack them all, and then offer them more reasonable terms.
What purpose would that serve? You'd still be top heavy with useless and highly paid administrators. These are the real problem but unfortunately they are hardly going to sack themselves.
 

Pabilito

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Feb 24, 2008
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5,596
So the IHCA who represent consultants are not going to turn up at the labour court talks - turning their faces against the state machinery that all the other plebs have to adhere to. Why because they want to protect their individual contracts.
Mr Varley head of the IHCA said that two weeks ago IHCA members had voted overwhelmingly not to enter into collective agreements which could alter consultants' existing individual legally binding contracts without their personal consent.

The question I have is if they are individual contracts and cannot have a collective agreement then how can they be protected by what is a collective agreement in the croke park agreement?

From my own knowledge of health the consultants and doctors are one of the only groups of staff not to engage in major change despite what they might think.
Consultants who do they think they are?.. Possibly just Consultants?.. Why.. who should they think they are?
 

drzhivago

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So the IHCA who represent consultants are not going to turn up at the labour court talks - turning their faces against the state machinery that all the other plebs have to adhere to. Why because they want to protect their individual contracts.
Mr Varley head of the IHCA said that two weeks ago IHCA members had voted overwhelmingly not to enter into collective agreements which could alter consultants' existing individual legally binding contracts without their personal consent.

The question I have is if they are individual contracts and cannot have a collective agreement then how can they be protected by what is a collective agreement in the croke park agreement?

From my own knowledge of health the consultants and doctors are one of the only groups of staff not to engage in major change despite what they might think.
I think you are mixing up a number of issues here

IHCA = Irish Hospital Consultants Association - Formed 1987 NOT A UNION, formed as split from IMO who at time were organising strike for Junior doctors (IHCA were ant-strike and said they would never strike but changed their opinions in recent years)

IHCA= Has an ability to negotiate with government BUT because not legally a union it cant engage in collective bargaining

IMO (Irish medical Organisation) IS A UNION, can enter collective bargaining, does and has committed to Labour Court and represents all branches of medicine, students, junior hospital doctors, consultants, public health specialists, army medical officers, Community Physicians etc

Practically, legally and realistically there is a world of difference between the two bodies but the media speak more of the IHCA in relation to consultant issues, I think this current scenario has shown them up a little because it would appear as if they are not engaging when in reality they can't

Maybe the HSE/DOH/Government should not be dealing with them and only dealing with IMO.

To Be fair I think you are misquoting Mr Varley above I dont believe he said that at all, IHCA were not signed up to Croke Park because they were legally not one of the bodies that could sign up to Croke park, Ironically IMO on behalf of GPs wanted to sign up to Croke park for them but Government would not let them because they felt it was against competition law so you have a very unusual position with respect to GPs

Regarding your own knowledge of health would like to have examples of where you have experience of consultants not engaging because I have experience otherwise
 

drzhivago

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In the 1980's Ronald Reagan (of whom I am not a fan) fired all the nation's air traffic controllers when they threatened to strike.

I'd love to see the gov fire all the consultants. Just sack them all, and then offer them more reasonable terms.
That would be one solution, good luck with running a health service in the absence of consultants.

If there is a strike a Union has to provide emergency cover

If you fire them all they dont have to provide any cover, overnight there would be no hospital system, that is impractical BUT would love to hear your idea how we would manage that

Consultants do have high salaries and because of that they could afford to hold out for a period, do you think they might even be in a stronger position in a short time frame when the media start trotting out stories of people who have died or been injured because there were no consultants, hard to criticise people who are not in their jobs when you have fired them, during a strike different scenario
 

SideysGhost

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What purpose would that serve? You'd still be top heavy with useless and highly paid administrators. These are the real problem but unfortunately they are hardly going to sack themselves.
Fire the lot of 'em.

It's like the quangos....there's hundreds of the buggers and we have no idea which, if any, of them actually do anything useful at all.

Nuke 'em from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

You could do it in a rolling phased basis over three years or so. Just go through each department, each quango etc in batches. Tell the staff they are on three months garden leave on full pay and send them home.

It'll very quickly become blatantly obvious who the worker bees are and who the wasters are, and which jobs actually need to actually be done. K, doing this in essential services would be a bit more complex but the principle remains the same.

The State is bankrupt and under foreign administration FFS, this is no time for hand-wringing limpology.
 

wishywashy

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Fire the lot of 'em.

It's like the quangos....there's hundreds of the buggers and we have no idea which, if any, of them actually do anything useful at all.

Nuke 'em from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

You could do it in a rolling phased basis over three years or so. Just go through each department, each quango etc in batches. Tell the staff they are on three months garden leave on full pay and send them home.

It'll very quickly become blatantly obvious who the worker bees are and who the wasters are, and which jobs actually need to actually be done. K, doing this in essential services would be a bit more complex but the principle remains the same.

The State is bankrupt and under foreign administration FFS, this is no time for hand-wringing limpology.


The mind boggles!
 

SideysGhost

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The mind boggles!
It'd be great craic. I've seen similar processes numerous times when private-sector companies run out of cash and need to be restructured. I've spent 20 years working in IT start-ups, it's part of daily life there. One case in Derry a few years ago a small company went from 22 staff to....4. A case in Galway, bout a decade ago, from 220 staff to 38. Both survived, are now trading profitably, with all fat trimmed.

If the staff are on rolling garden leave then they can be called back in if it turns out they are the person who Does Stuff. In any office everyone knows who the people who Do Stuff are but 80% of the staff are just playing politics and manoeuvring for position. The private sector has massive waste and non-jobs, the public sector is even worse without the (necessary but insufficient) impulse of bankruptcy and administration/receivership.

Outside of hospitals and power generation there's really very little we couldn't do without for a couple of weeks.

Most of the clowns on this site have never been through a company liquidation or major restructuring and know zero about global commercial reality. Which is one of the reasons IMO why they've all been so wrong about all matters economic, financial and political for the last decade.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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It'd be great craic. I've seen similar processes numerous times when private-sector companies run out of cash and need to be restructured. I've spent 20 years working in IT start-ups, it's part of daily life there. One case in Derry a few years ago a small company went from 22 staff to....4. A case in Galway, bout a decade ago, from 220 staff to 38. Both survived, are now trading profitably, with all fat trimmed.

If the staff are on rolling garden leave then they can be called back in if it turns out they are the person who Does Stuff. In any office everyone knows who the people who Do Stuff are but 80% of the staff are just playing politics and manoeuvring for position. The private sector has massive waste and non-jobs, the public sector is even worse without the (necessary but insufficient) impulse of bankruptcy and administration/receivership.

Outside of hospitals and power generation there's really very little we couldn't do without for a couple of weeks.

Most of the clowns on this site have never been through a company liquidation or major restructuring and know zero about global commercial reality. Which is one of the reasons IMO why they've all been so wrong about all matters economic, financial and political for the last decade.
You think the State and the services it provides is comparable to a small company in Derry?

If a private company fails it is usually because it is uncompetitive or there is a lack of demand for its services. If it goes bust, the competition fills the void - unless it's a monopoly.

The State is bust, but the services it provides are needed. Who will provide them if staff numbers are slashed?
 

SideysGhost

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You think the State and the services it provides is comparable to a small company in Derry?

If a private company fails it is usually because it is uncompetitive or there is a lack of demand for its services. If it goes bust, the competition fills the void - unless it's a monopoly.

The State is bust, but the services it provides are needed. Who will provide them if staff numbers are slashed?
Obviously it's a bigger scale but there's very little difference IMO. There's about 1000 quangos and almost all of them have a handful or at most a couple of hundred staff, every single one of them would be a simple and entirely comparable job to restructuring an insolvent SME. Similarly with almost every other aspect of the State. The HSE is a bit of an outlier in terms of sheer size but even there: break it down into logical work units and go through it like a dose of salts, phased over a few years.

Simples.

And what are these necessary services of which you speak? One of the problems is that people do not believe they are getting decent services at all for their taxes. We've all lived through strikes and disruptions before, the sky won't fall and nobody is going to die. And as you clean up each batch of work units then people know they are getting value for money in those areas at least, can see the improvements and cost/efficiency savings, and become more willing to endure the necessary process of radical reform.

People will put up with almost anything as long as they are convinced the people in charge have a clue and are genuinely trying to do what's best, not line their own pockets.

Besides it's not even about staff numbers. It's about doing things properly, thinking things through, planning and organising and deciding what the priorities are. I realise this is just crazy talk to most Irish people, but there you have it, until Irish people get their heads round these concepts the State will always be a dysfunctional mess.

Should we be doing this at all? Is this being duplicated anywhere else? If we need this, what is the actual deliverable product or service? What is the real level of demand, and is it seasonal or steady, what are the expected peaks and troughs? What are the resources we actually need to get that done, how many people do we need with what skills, what are the logical shift rotas for those staff, what are fair wages and benefits for those jobs, and what systems are needed to support it all? Here's your new job offer/contract, sign or sod off.

It may even transpire that, overall, total PS numbers employed change very little, though the individuals and the role they are in may change drastically. But the army of spoofers will be out on their ear and everyone still there will be genuinely doing something useful. Which, incidentally, would put an end to the carping from the WingNut Sindo brigade for a generation.

Sure, it'll be hard work. But it can be done, if there were politicians with a bit of experience in the really real world.

Or ye can muddle along snouting at the trough until the whole house of cards collapses under the weight of its own BS.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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Obviously it's a bigger scale but there's very little difference IMO. There's about 1000 quangos and almost all of them have a handful or at most a couple of hundred staff, every single one of them would be a simple and entirely comparable job to restructuring an insolvent SME. Similarly with almost every other aspect of the State. The HSE is a bit of an outlier in terms of sheer size but even there: break it down into logical work units and go through it like a dose of salts, phased over a few years.

Simples.

And what are these necessary services of which you speak? One of the problems is that people do not believe they are getting decent services at all for their taxes. We've all lived through strikes and disruptions before, the sky won't fall and nobody is going to die. And as you clean up each batch of work units then people know they are getting value for money in those areas at least, can see the improvements and cost/efficiency savings, and become more willing to endure the necessary process of radical reform.

People will put up with almost anything as long as they are convinced the people in charge have a clue and are genuinely trying to do what's best, not line their own pockets.

Besides it's not even about staff numbers. It's about doing things properly, thinking things through, planning and organising and deciding what the priorities are. I realise this is just crazy talk to most Irish people, but there you have it, until Irish people get their heads round these concepts the State will always be a dysfunctional mess.

Should we be doing this at all? Is this being duplicated anywhere else? If we need this, what is the actual deliverable product or service? What is the real level of demand, and is it seasonal or steady, what are the expected peaks and troughs? What are the resources we actually need to get that done, how many people do we need with what skills, what are the logical shift rotas for those staff, what are fair wages and benefits for those jobs, and what systems are needed to support it all? Here's your new job offer/contract, sign or sod off.

It may even transpire that, overall, total PS numbers employed change very little, though the individuals and the role they are in may change drastically. But the army of spoofers will be out on their ear and everyone still there will be genuinely doing something useful. Which, incidentally, would put an end to the carping from the WingNut Sindo brigade for a generation.

Sure, it'll be hard work. But it can be done, if there were politicians with a bit of experience in the really real world.

Or ye can muddle along snouting at the trough until the whole house of cards collapses under the weight of its own BS.
As someone who has watched his family use public hospitals twice in recent weeks, I have to say that I am more than happy with the service provided. In fact, it was excellent.

I wouldn't change anything about it, we just need to figure out how to pay for it.
 

damus

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This is the press statement from the IHCA.

22 October 2012

For Immediate Release

IHCA confirms its position on the Labour Court Referrals

Hospital consultants have been implementing reforms and wish to have constructive discussions leading to further improvements in the health services.

None of the proposed changes referred to the Labour Court for hearings this week are within the scope of the specific health sector measures included in the Public Service (“Croke Park”) Agreement. The IHCA believes there is no basis for these matters to be investigated by the Labour Court and it has written to the Court to this effect today, Monday.
Over two weeks ago, IHCA members voted by an overwhelming majority to continue the Association’s practice over the past 20 years and not enter into collective agreements which could alter consultants’ existing individual legally binding contracts without their personal consent. In addition, the Public Service Agreement explicitly states that all existing agreements and contracts remain intact.

Minister Reilly and the HSE last year sought consultants’ support to deliver health service improvements through the Clinical Care Programmes, within existing contracts and the Public Service Agreement. All reports have confirmed that consultants are delivering these improvements, saving an estimated €90 million in 2012 in one programme alone, increasing the number of patients treated and reducing waiting times despite the cuts in acute hospital resources.
There is no dispute with the fact that consultants continue to deliver far over and above that for which they are contracted.

Given the delivery of the resultant improvements, consultants are at a loss to understand what the Health Service Management hope to achieve through their current approach. They appear intent on jeopardizing this good work with their current approach to industrial relations matters.

It would be extraordinarily short-sighted of the State to disrupt the progress that is being achieved in implementing the Clinical Care Programmes. Consultants are honouring the delivery on their part and the State should do likewise. That is a prerequisite for progress.

Ends
For further information
Martin Varley
Secretary General
087 227 4099​
Perhaps rather than looking at the consultants, the focus of attention should be on health service managers and what they're actually trying to achieve by referring these matters to a third party, given the IHCA has already recommended acceptance of the LRC proposals!

The National Council of the IHCA is recommending acceptance of these proposals. Members are considering them and so the IHCA sees no reason to refer these matters to any third party. This consultation will conclude on 26th October and the Association expects to be in a position to notify the HSE of the outcome shortly thereafter.
Of course the more radical solution would be to sack en-masse all these useless HSE managers!

Press release 22 October 2012 - The Irish Hospital Consultants Association

Press Release 16 October 2012 - The Irish Hospital Consultants Association
 

FrankSpeaks

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In the 1980's Ronald Reagan (of whom I am not a fan) fired all the nation's air traffic controllers when they threatened to strike.

I'd love to see the gov fire all the consultants. Just sack them all, and then offer them more reasonable terms.
I was going to post the exact same suggestion.
 

partnership

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Feb 2, 2011
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Thanks Drzhivago for clarifying the IHCA and IMO and what they stand for. The statement I said was made by Dr Varley is a direct quote from an article on RTE.

The big point for me is that a collective agreement such as croke park cannot apply to individual contracts as it is not possible to negotiate individually - I don't understand how they can have croke park on one hand and not the other when everyone else has to abide by it. After all we all have individual contracts of employment.

With regard to specifics I am not in a position to give that information because it may be recognisable. So I will ask a question instead of the consultants please provide details of the major changes you have been involved in, please point out where int he implementation bodys report this is recorded. If that is provided I have no difficulty in taking my statement back.
 

damus

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So far the deans of two medical schools (UCD and TCD) have decided to upsticks and head back to the US and the UK and in doing so they are raising serious questions about the ability of Ireland to attract high calibre academics given the lack of investment in the fourth sector.

THE DEPARTING head of UCD’s medical school has said he has found it extremely difficult to recruit top-class doctors to return to Ireland because we do not have education or health systems that function properly.
UCD medical school chief quits €241,000 job for US - National News - Independent.ie

Persuading top Irish doctors to return home increasingly difficult, says UCD medical dean - The Irish Times - Tue, Oct 23, 2012
 

DCon

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May 5, 2009
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Howlin was saying this morning that they can't pick and choose which aspects of teh CPA they like and want to follow.

No pay cuts, good. We want that.

Reform of work practices, bad. We do not want that.
 
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