Contracting out could resolve the expected long term scarcity of advanced maths teachers


CatullusV

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You seem to think your personal situation applies universally to all mathematicians. It doesn't.

An acquaintance abroad quit a good job as an electrician in his 30s to do a BA and after the BA took a teacher training degree to become a secondary teacher, five years of study. A mathematician could do a one year teacher training course some years ago. Today,thanks to pressure to create barriers to entry to teaching, a two year course is required despite lack of empirical evidence that teacher training is effective.
So an acquaintance decided on a career change? Your point is?

Must I repeat that high qualifications in a subject do not make one qualified to teach young people.?

Your OP suggested bringing in contractors, of which I am one. There is no way that I will take two years not only unpaid and with no access to benefits as well as paying for further education in order to subsequently take a pay hit. Nor do I know anyone in my position who would be remotely interested in such a prospect.
 

Patslatt1

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So an acquaintance decided on a career change? Your point is?

Must I repeat that high qualifications in a subject do not make one qualified to teach young people.?

Your OP suggested bringing in contractors, of which I am one. There is no way that I will take two years not only unpaid and with no access to benefits as well as paying for further education in order to subsequently take a pay hit. Nor do I know anyone in my position who would be remotely interested in such a prospect.
You must have a limited social circle. Many people in business, especially in stressful occupations like legal litigation, look on teaching as an idealistic career alternative. Changing careers can be difficult and teaching is now difficult to enter for professionals in other fields because the extra year of teacher training is a high barrier to entry. Possibly, online courses might be a way around the barrier.
 

Patslatt1

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So an acquaintance decided on a career change? Your point is?

Must I repeat that high qualifications in a subject do not make one qualified to teach young people.?

Your OP suggested bringing in contractors, of which I am one. There is no way that I will take two years not only unpaid and with no access to benefits as well as paying for further education in order to subsequently take a pay hit. Nor do I know anyone in my position who would be remotely interested in such a prospect.
You must have a limited social circle. Many people in business, especially in stressful occupations like legal litigation, look on teaching as an idealistic career alternative. Changing careers can be difficult and teaching is now difficult to enter for professionals in other fields because the extra year of teacher training is a high barrier to entry. Possibly, online courses like Hibernia College announces new online second-level teacher education programme - Hibernia College might be a way around the barrier.
 

CatullusV

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You must have a limited social circle. Many people in business, especially in stressful occupations like legal litigation, look on teaching as an idealistic career alternative. Changing careers can be difficult and teaching is now difficult to enter for professionals in other fields because the extra year of teacher training is a high barrier to entry. Possibly, online courses might be a way around the barrier.
My social circle is very broad indeed, including close friends embracing several nationalities. I'm not entirely sure why you would make such a waspish comment, though. It is entirely irrelevant to the issue.

The relationships I cited are professional, which is the context which I was using.

Surely this was always the basis on which a thread such as this should be based? One of shared professional observations?

If you are incapable of that level of detachment perhaps you shouldn't be raising such suggestions. I've given you the benefit of a contractor's view of the considerations involved in the scheme you floated in your OP. Dismiss my experience on its merits rather than with snarky asides. You invited discussion.
 

GDPR

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You must have a limited social circle. Many people in business, especially in stressful occupations like legal litigation, look on teaching as an idealistic career alternative. Changing careers can be difficult and teaching is now difficult to enter for professionals in other fields because the extra year of teacher training is a high barrier to entry. Possibly, online courses might be a way around the barrier.
That won't last long when they see the inside of an actual classroom.
 

toughbutfair

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Indeed. I recall our sparse leaving cert tome (written by the Christian Brothers) started the chapter on matrices with a bare "A matrix is an ordered array of elements". Nothing more.

I use arrays to some extent, but not in the way that we were taught to manipulate them. I've used calculus a handful of times. I use set theory quite heavily.

A microbiologist friend uses maths much much more intensively than I do (including the afore-mentioned matrices). For him maths is just a hammer or a wrench in his toolbox.
We had a sub teacher for a while and unfortunately did matrices with her. I don’t think she understood what they were and basically said that we just had to learn off the row order that you multiply. No google in those days so never understood what the hell we were doing, just something to get marks in an exam.
 

Prester Jim

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You must have a limited social circle. Many people in business, especially in stressful occupations like legal litigation, look on teaching as an idealistic career alternative. Changing careers can be difficult and teaching is now difficult to enter for professionals in other fields because the extra year of teacher training is a high barrier to entry. Possibly, online courses like Hibernia College announces new online second-level teacher education programme - Hibernia College might be a way around the barrier.
It is a two year course now for no great advantage, that is something that they should change immediately if they want some new entrants quicker.
Other than that you're mostly wrong as usual.
Contracting out and making it an insecure profession will just make people much less likely to stay in Ireland and do the job if they overlook the fact that it has become temping hell and pay the 7 grand a year plus living expenses to do the course.
Not all maths grads or science grads would make good teachers. Many of the people I went to college with for the BSc would be eaten alive and almost all of them are making much more money than me and couldn't take the pay cut with their current expenses.
They will have to make the job more attractive to maths grads and pay them to try it out too, good for all if they find out if tyhey have what it takes before spending time and money getting the PGDE.
There are lots of very bright and capable maths and science grads who get into teaching because they like the extra time, love the social aspect and are willing to take the pay cut for it. You would just have t fiddle with the pay to get the required more in.
Not sure you're up to understanding this... weren't you saying that we should cut pay to nurses to solve the lack of nurses crisis?
 

fifilawe

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bring in teachers from the sub-Continent , with poor english and put them 10 to a house about the Pale.That'll fix the problem,Ha,Ha! Next , you will have family re-unification and immigration problems to solve.Parents , spouses, children , etc will all have to be dealt with.The taxpayer has an endless pot of money to spend on displacing and replacing our own people it seems.Pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys and Slattman Pat and your B&W Cat love the Globalisation Agenda.Have you Slattman ever had to leave Ireland to support yourself or have you come from "the right class of people " above the Little people not leprechauns
 

Patslatt1

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It is a two year course now for no great advantage, that is something that they should change immediately if they want some new entrants quicker.
Other than that you're mostly wrong as usual.
Contracting out and making it an insecure profession will just make people much less likely to stay in Ireland and do the job if they overlook the fact that it has become temping hell and pay the 7 grand a year plus living expenses to do the course.
Not all maths grads or science grads would make good teachers. Many of the people I went to college with for the BSc would be eaten alive and almost all of them are making much more money than me and couldn't take the pay cut with their current expenses.
They will have to make the job more attractive to maths grads and pay them to try it out too, good for all if they find out if tyhey have what it takes before spending time and money getting the PGDE.
There are lots of very bright and capable maths and science grads who get into teaching because they like the extra time, love the social aspect and are willing to take the pay cut for it. You would just have t fiddle with the pay to get the required more in.
Not sure you're up to understanding this... weren't you saying that we should cut pay to nurses to solve the lack of nurses crisis?
The point of contracting out in maths is to enable higher pay than the communist equal pay of all teachers to attract scarce maths teachers. Communist pay ignores supply and demand for skills but prevents teacher pay jealousy.The government can't afford to pay that far higher contractor pay to all teachers.

There may be a big barrier to entry in the qualifications required by the teaching council for applied maths which look highly restrictive:
"Applicants must provide officially certified evidence of satisfactory achievement in primary degree studies (or equivalent) as outlined hereunder:
"The study of Applied Mathematics as a major subject in the degree extending over at least three years and of the order of 30% at a minimum of that period."

Since maths is a separate secondary school subject from applied maths, small schools might only recruit teachers with both qualifications.

My point on Irish nurses pay is that their extremely high pay, about 45% higher than the UK for instance,has undermined hospital budgets and prevented hospitals from hiring sufficient numbers of nurses in highly stressful A&E for instance. This increases job stress, causing the high turnover of nursing jobs and persistent shortages, especially among new entrants on inferior pay and pensions to the unionised old guard who looked after themselves in the crash. This is an unusual paradox of higher pay causing shortages.
 
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Patslatt1

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bring in teachers from the sub-Continent , with poor english and put them 10 to a house about the Pale.That'll fix the problem,Ha,Ha! Next , you will have family re-unification and immigration problems to solve.Parents , spouses, children , etc will all have to be dealt with.The taxpayer has an endless pot of money to spend on displacing and replacing our own people it seems.Pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys and Slattman Pat and your B&W Cat love the Globalisation Agenda.Have you Slattman ever had to leave Ireland to support yourself or have you come from "the right class of people " above the Little people not leprechauns
A lot of UK maths teachers would find Irish teacher pay and the gold plated pensions and tax free lump sums very attractive.
 

making waves

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A lot of UK maths teachers would find Irish teacher pay and the gold plated pensions and tax free lump sums very attractive.
Pensions that require you to live to 94 years of age to get back the pension contributions made.
 

CatullusV

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A lot of UK maths teachers would find Irish teacher pay and the gold plated pensions and tax free lump sums very attractive.
Your OP concerned the use of contractors, not people changing careers or countries.
 

Patslatt1

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Pensions that require you to live to 94 years of age to get back the pension contributions made.
Bullsand!
How is the Chavista thing going in Venezuela, one of your favourite political causes? Contributing to famine relief there in your Christmas giving?
 

Calculusmadeeasy

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Why do you need "advanced" math teachers to teach IC/LC mathematics? It's been dumbed down to Barney level since the 90s.
 

Prester Jim

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A lot of UK maths teachers would find Irish teacher pay and the gold plated pensions and tax free lump sums very attractive.
Well if so why are they not here?
 

reg11

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Why do you need "advanced" math teachers to teach IC/LC mathematics? It's been dumbed down to Barney level since the 90s.
Indeed, I totally agree. LC Higher Level could hardly be regarded as advanced maths? Regardless, is there a scarcity of teachers who're capable of teaching it to Higher LC? Where's Pat getting this idea of a scarcity from?
 

Calculusmadeeasy

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Indeed, I totally agree. LC Higher Level could hardly be regarded as advanced maths? Regardless, is there a scarcity of teachers who're capable of teaching it to Higher LC? Where's Pat getting this idea of a scarcity from?
I don't know. This issue has been discussed ad nauseam. There are several threads discussing it replete with comparisons between contemporary LC Maths (Higher) and ye olde syllabus. Most posters agreed that the maths curriculum has been dumbed down significantly since the early 90s, so hiring "advanced" teachers on a contract basis is not going to register a difference if the course content doesn't include "advanced" maths.

By "advanced" I assume that Pat means what used to be called Higher Arithmetic. You'd have to hire Indiana Jones to explore the DOE vaults to find text books with that content (1970s - 1993).

I think the biggest issues with the old syllabus were three fold (1) The course was abstract (2) The advent of Computers has nullified the need to study Linear Algebra and Higher Calculus (3) Liberals want a "everyone's a winner" curriculum.
 
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