Coronavirus - how should the majority respond to the vaccine refuseniks when one becomes available

alaimacerc

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If you watch what is happening in the US, it is the Trump Republican supporters who won't wear masks, won't use a vaccine, crowd together, and they will be the ones catching the virus and dying en masse when the ICU beds are all filed and they are on trollies in the hall or on the floor.
Oh, well.
Unfortunately, they'll do all those things... and then pass it onto people without health insurance, or to ethnic minorities who seem to be disproportionately affected. If only they could have one giant pox party in Pennsyltucky or Deep South Virginia (after giving due notice to allow the more rational inhabitants to evacuate), Darwin would be more effectively vindicated.
 


alaimacerc

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Another thing I notice lately regarding the Conspiro-loons is; calling everyone who downloaded the App “sheep”.
The term 'herd immunity' -- or possibly even worse, 'flock immunity' -- rather leans into the punch on that one, unfortunately. In part it's attempting to make a virtue out of what might otherwise (or indeed objectively) be seen as the embarrassment of being a tiny minority. (The vax-'hesitant' might be much larger, but if you count the conspiracy theory True Believers -- or worse, count them per conspiracy -- they really are a fringe.)

They're not shy about taking the trope itself to pretty bizarre extremes. Look at the "NPC meme" phenomenon as the next-more-toxic stage of the same idea.
 

ruserious

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The term 'herd immunity' -- or possibly even worse, 'flock immunity' -- rather leans into the punch on that one, unfortunately. In part it's attempting to make a virtue out of what might otherwise (or indeed objectively) be seen as the embarrassment of being a tiny minority. (The vax-'hesitant' might be much larger, but if you count the conspiracy theory True Believers -- or worse, count them per conspiracy -- they really are a fringe.)

They're not shy about taking the trope itself to pretty bizarre extremes. Look at the "NPC meme" phenomenon as the next-more-toxic stage of the same idea.
The irony being that every conspiroloon believes every conspiracy without question.
 

alaimacerc

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The irony being that every conspiroloon believes every conspiracy without question.
I once heard an astronomer say the Flat Earth people and the Hollow Earth types both kept giving him a hard time. Solution? Put them in touch with each other...
 

reg11

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Oh. here we go.

Always a good sign when someone starts making flat assertions about the credibility of their own claims. Before they've even made them.


No. You can get -- for example -- lung damage from covid-19, and suffer longer-lasting effects from recovering from that. That's caused by the disease, not by antibodies. Your scenario would only be plausible if there were evidence for auto-immune syndromes post-covid-19, or from vaccines that were at all comparable.


There's a total gish gallop here. You've just gone straight from equating known medium-term effects of infection -- necessarily on a timescale of months, at most -- with completely hypothetical side-effects of a vaccine... to total speculation about much longer-term effects. Which of course you can do indefinitely. "This vaccine has only been extensively clinically trialled for twenty years! We know nothing -- nothing I say! -- about its effects on people twenty-one years after administration!"

Which is of course exactly why they're trialled before they're fully deployed. Indeed, there are whole series of trials, conducted in 3-4 distinct phases. Likely best not to get your information on vaccine timelines from (for example) gameshow hosts turned heads of government that believe they have 'natural ability' in science.
Screenshot_20200712-190259_Samsung Internet.jpg


The facts are Covid19 mutates and there are so many possible resulting permutations that it isn't possible all possible future strains can be foreseen. That's not even taking into account the other new-to-humanity Corona viruses waiting in the wings. Leading to the condition of Ade that has been documented above for other Corona viruses.
 
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bang bang

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can't do links at mo but Google vaccination gone wrong, anyway even successful vaccination can range from 10%-90% success rate. Personally I qualify for flu jab every year I stopped a few years ago and have had less than when had the jab. I'm not into conspiracy theories merely against the lack of choice and punishment for exercising that right...
I've had the opposite experience, and have found the flu jab to be very effective.
 

greencharade

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View attachment 26267

The facts are Covid19 mutates and there are so many possible resulting permutations that it isn't possible all possible future strains can be foreseen. That's not even taking into account the other new-to-humanity Corona viruses waiting in the wings. Leading to the condition of Ade that has been documented above for other Corona viruses.
Sounds like viral interference - or is this another separate baddie.
 

Barroso

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Would this happen to be a project called Electronic Support for Public Health–Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System? Which was run by Harvard Pilgrim Health Care, Inc. As distinct from -- say! -- Harvard University.


"Potentially." Me arse. 1.6% of all US deaths. Were you born yesterday, or just under the optimistic misapprehension that the rest of us were?
I looked at it, and at the bottom of the page it says:
VAERS is co-sponsored by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), agencies of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS).
The website is a government one: Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)

So it looks legit, although in these days of corporate capture of the state, and in particular under Trump, you might be forgiven for wondering.
 

alaimacerc

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I looked at it, and at the bottom of the page it says:

The website is a government one: Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS)

So it looks legit, although in these days of corporate capture of the state, and in particular under Trump, you might be forgiven for wondering.
No, absolutely, I quoted from the agency myself just above.

The arse-factor kicks in when people start claiming that:
  • Every case in the system is a proven causal link between 'had vaccine' and 'got adverse result'; and
  • That you can cheerfully scale up every such outcome in their system by a factor of 100, just 'cos.
 

alaimacerc

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The facts are Covid19 mutates and there are so many possible resulting permutations that it isn't possible all possible future strains can be foreseen. That's not even taking into account the other new-to-humanity Corona viruses waiting in the wings. Leading to the condition of Ade that has been documented above for other Corona viruses.
Can we have quotes in a non-eye-bleeding format, please? Like text, rather than huge hideous-looking screengrabs.

Anyhoo, this is the logic of "science doesn't know everything..." "... yes..." "... so we can make up any ol' crap we like" "no!", to paraphrase Dara Ó Briain.

ADE is a documented phenomenon, yes. It's documented with coronaviruses, indeed -- it was a significant obstacle in the work on a SARS vaccine, over and above the timescale. (It being fortunately contained long before the typical vaccine-development timeline.) But it's preposterous to go from that to the idea, that you're arguing above, that any vaccine for covid-19 can never be demonstrated to meet safety standards. Just the reverse, it pretty much guarantees this is something they're going to investigate with considerable care before it is certified.

To which you of course say "yesbutnobutmutations". The field of evidence-free-I-can-imagine-a-catastrophic-scenario medicine.
 

alaimacerc

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We’re not going on any plane. I never mentioned flying until August. My eldest has to get back to university in Scotland in September. The university has said they will be open and at the moment the students are organising accommodation. One rule was that you could leave the country to return and collect luggage left behind. Not needed to do that as it happens. If Scotland says that you can’t come I’ll figure that out later.
As it stands, the worse case -- depending on what country -- is that he'd have to pitch up two weeks early, and self-isolate for that time. If that's the case at present, might of course change before then. (Or if you want to catastrophise at little more, the situation might have gone south by then, and a still-stricter regime could be in place!)
 

alaimacerc

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Incurable, so everybody dies, or has a bad existence, really?
You seem to be confusing the lack of a cure with it being a terminal condition. Which (mostly) it is not. Any number of diseases are largely self-limiting, but don't have any cure per se.
 

raetsel

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I've had the opposite experience, and have found the flu jab to be very effective.
I get it every year. If nothing else it's a "comfort blanket" for me. A real flu and what some people think is the flu are chalk and cheese. The actual flu will keep you in bed for a week.
 

alaimacerc

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Looks like any vaccine may have to be taken annually(at least) for it to be effective.

Don't ask me to explain the immunology of this -- not sure the immunologists understand it themselves -- but it's possible that a vaccine could out-perform acquired resistance. Not that you'd want to take that to the bank, and we might equally get a much less effective one, or indeed none at all.
 

reg11

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I get it every year. If nothing else it's a "comfort blanket" for me. A real flu and what some people think is the flu are chalk and cheese. The actual flu will keep you in bed for a week.
Screenshot_20200713-144123_Samsung Internet.jpg
 

Emily Davison

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It seems you might have hit on the antidote to all this propagated fear surrounding covid. Go to a place where people court danger and maybe indulge a bit. I don't think some people appreciate how all this fear is negatively affecting some people, almost to the point of being driven crazy.

As a matter of interest, are you finding your trip helpful? Has your perspective changed to hopefully a more positive one?
Oh no I wouldn't advocate doing what I did. It made me worse actually. And the kids cajoled me on another wild mountain crossing that I swore I wouldn't do. Which was a very BIG mistake. But we managed it and I've now sworn I'm only doing things on the flat any more, or on Irish 'mountains' which are hills really. I only got this 'drop' problem after having the children, and intitially this trip I thought I was fine as we brought them skiing in February and the mountain climb, in the car, was so horrendous I contemplated walking down the mountain on the return.

To put all this in a bit of perspective. I can't do rollarcoasters at all. And even if I go on a very tame one I close my eyes. Something wrong with my make up I suppose.

Yes I'm more positive, a holiday is always great and the weather was fab. It was sooooo good to get away from endless depressing news. To go to a place where people felt free. To forget as much as one could about Covid. But as I did say it's a place where people do very extreme sports. We were amoungst the first people to get going and I heard on the radio last weekend that there were massive traffic jams so I reckon most of Europe is on the move. Most everybody I know is heading off now. It was good too we had our Turkey trip cancelled because I don't think I'd have stuck hours on a plane with masks on. And it would have been two planes and a few hours in one airport.
 

reg11

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I get it every year. If nothing else it's a "comfort blanket" for me. A real flu and what some people think is the flu are chalk and cheese. The actual flu will keep you in bed for a week.
Are you sure it's a comfort blanket? The ADE phenomenon could be at play with regard to the flu vaccine and a covid infection? I saw on TV where a presenter posed the suggestion that the flu vaccine should be made more widely available so as to mitigate against the effects on hospitals of a possible winter covid surge. I could see the big eyed look of the lady doctor who possibly was saying to herself ' please don't go there', but she managed to successfully dodge the suggestion/question.

 

RasherHash

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NY governer Cuomo sent thousands of infected people into nursing homes, an insane policy...NZ Adern policy equivalent to painting themselves into a corner, when the country opens up it will be flooded with viruses...Sweden exercised good governance...NJ and NY have double the C19 death rates of Sweden...NY shootings are up by 358%, the city is falling apart and at the same time the Libloons are defunding the Police...

 


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