Corruption in Romania

Mad as Fish

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As a country on the very far side of Europe we don't hear an awful lot about Romania yet it is a member of the EU and with a population 4 times the size of Ireland it should, in theory, carry more influence in how the union is run. So what are we to make of the fact that last weekend the government passed a law that made corruption in the country legal? -

The protests started after the current Romanian government passed a law making it almost impossible to convict people in political office for abuse of power. This has all but officially legalized corruption in the Eastern European country. The law also implies that thousands of prison sentences will be commuted—especially those of politicians sentenced for corruption and misappropriating millions in public funds.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/romania-has-essentially-made-corruption-legal


I gather there have been great efforts to uproot corruption in the country over the last few years, far more so than in Ireland, and the fact that there are people languishing in jails because of these purges is welcome evidence of the country energetically addressing the problem, but now all that good work is to be undone.

Should Romania fall back to being a rogue's paradise then what should be the reaction of the EU? Juncker has made a few noises but done little else, can he do any more anyway?
 


Mad as Fish

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As a country on the very far side of Europe we don't hear an awful lot about Romania yet it is a member of the EU and with a population 4 times the size of Ireland it should, in theory, carry more influence in how the union is run. So what are we to make of the fact that last weekend the government passed a law that made corruption in the country legal? -

The protests started after the current Romanian government passed a law making it almost impossible to convict people in political office for abuse of power. This has all but officially legalized corruption in the Eastern European country. The law also implies that thousands of prison sentences will be commuted—especially those of politicians sentenced for corruption and misappropriating millions in public funds.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/romania-has-essentially-made-corruption-legal


I gather there have been great efforts to uproot corruption in the country over the last few years, far more so than in Ireland, and the fact that there are people languishing in jails because of these purges is welcome evidence of the country energetically addressing the problem, but now all that good work is to be undone.

Should Romania fall back to being a rogue's paradise then what should be the reaction of the EU? Juncker has made a few noises but done little else, can he do any more anyway?
Might be worth pointing out that Romania is in receipt of EU development grants of around €31bn and there is now no way of ensuring that this money is not diverted into private bank accounts rather than spent on the projects intended, unless the payments can be suspended.

Through eight national and regional programmes, Romania has been allocated EUR 30.84 billion from ESI Funds over the period 2014-2020. With a national contribution of EUR 5.63 billion, Romania has a total budget of EUR 36.47 billion to be invested in various areas, from creating jobs and growth to promoting innovation as well as protecting the environment and supporting social inclusion.

European Structural and Investment Funds: Country factsheet - Romania - Regional Policy - European Commission
 

Fractional Reserve

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As a country on the very far side of Europe we don't hear an awful lot about Romania yet it is a member of the EU and with a population 4 times the size of Ireland it should, in theory, carry more influence in how the union is run. So what are we to make of the fact that last weekend the government passed a law that made corruption in the country legal? -

The protests started after the current Romanian government passed a law making it almost impossible to convict people in political office for abuse of power. This has all but officially legalized corruption in the Eastern European country. The law also implies that thousands of prison sentences will be commuted—especially those of politicians sentenced for corruption and misappropriating millions in public funds.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/romania-has-essentially-made-corruption-legal


I gather there have been great efforts to uproot corruption in the country over the last few years, far more so than in Ireland, and the fact that there are people languishing in jails because of these purges is welcome evidence of the country energetically addressing the problem, but now all that good work is to be undone.

Should Romania fall back to being a rogue's paradise then what should be the reaction of the EU? Juncker has made a few noises but done little else, can he do any more anyway?
There is corruption everywhere in the world , once you have government and its subordinate authorities you will get rampant corruption
 

WTTR

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Maybe, there could be some hope emanating from Eastern Europe

Such a climate of corruption obviously helps when you want to station nuclear inter ballistic missiles there.

When you become wealthy from corruption, you automatically think that some one else will take it all away.

Now that a new detente is developing with Russia

Will the missiles be withdrawn?

Thereby, giving us all a wee glimpse of hope for the continent of Europe.
 

Mad as Fish

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There is corruption everywhere in the world , once you have government and its subordinate authorities you will get rampant corruption
Indeed, but there are usually laws against it, but that no longer applies in Romania.

Do you feel that corruption should be condoned in this way?
 

Fractional Reserve

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Indeed, but there are usually laws against it, but that no longer applies in Romania.

Do you feel that corruption should be condoned in this way?
Power corrupts alway has and alway will , corruption should be punished , but usually in political circles and higher civil servant types keep it close to their chest and don't get caught .You cannot condone corruption its make a mockery of democarcy and society
 

Mad as Fish

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Power corrupts alway has and alway will , corruption should be punished , but usually in political circles and higher civil servant types keep it close to their chest and don't get caught .You cannot condone corruption its make a mockery of democarcy and society
That is the point, they will no longer punished in Romania and the EU is sending oodles of your money there.
 

Mad as Fish

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Such a climate of corruption obviously helps when you want to station nuclear inter ballistic missiles there.

When you become wealthy from corruption, you automatically think that some one else will take it all away.

Now that a new detente is developing with Russia

Will the missiles be withdrawn?

Thereby, giving us all a wee glimpse of hope for the continent of Europe.
I'm not sure that this has anything to do with nuclear missiles at all. From the link -

Anticorruption expert Laura Ștefan told VICE Romania that "the main beneficiary of this law is Liviu Dragnea," the leader of the current ruling party PSD. Dragnea was convicted of organizing electoral fraud in the 2012 presidential impeachment referendum, and this new law will absolve him of that crime and allow him to return to public office.


Dragnea was deputy prime minister before being convicted of fraud, now he can resume his political career.
 

Fractional Reserve

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That is the point, they will no longer punished in Romania and the EU is sending oodles of your money there.
Sure the Eu if you dig deep is as corrupt as any country , back handed political favours left and right with taxpayers money .
Well then you stop sending money until they sort it out .
 

Mad as Fish

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Sure the Eu if you dig deep is as corrupt as any country , back handed political favours left and right with taxpayers money .
Well then you stop sending money until they sort it out .
Of course it is corrupt, but shouldn't we make every attempt to minimize corruption rather than just shrugging our shoulders?

Can the EU suspend the payments and on what grounds?
 

Mad as Fish

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At least Romanians have the passion to protest about corruption. A tragic fire at a night club in Bucharest in 2015 sparked anti-corruption protests and ultimately forced the resignation of the prime minister.

Romanian PM resigns after deadly nightclub fire
And yet when a similar number protested against the water charges in Ireland which are hardly free from the smell of corruption....?
 

runwiththewind

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Kick Romania out of the EU and the 31billion of EU money saved will cover the UK's contribution.

Sorted.

Simples.

On a more serious note, this is the kind of behaviour that will be the EUs undoing.
 
O

Oscurito

And yet when a similar number protested against the water charges in Ireland which are hardly free from the smell of corruption....?
? I'm not seeing any connection between the two issues.

I'm going to play devil's advocate a wee bit. Corruption amongst the political elites in any country doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's merely an amplified form of what's going on in the wider society. I was in Romania (Bucharest) in 2011 and had a couple of good long chats with one of the guys who worked in the hotel where I stayed about similarities and differences between life in Ireland and Romania.

He once asked me if I'd ever bribed a policeman in Ireland, I had to laugh and reply "Absolutely not". That was one immediate and huge difference. In Romania, it's totally normal to bribe the police. So what the politicians are doing is a reflection of the wider society and while I applaud the protesters, how many of them could claim to never have sought or given a bribe?

"Be the change you want to see in the world", as Gandhi apparently didn't say, at least not in those exact words.
 
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Fractional Reserve

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Of course it is corrupt, but shouldn't we make every attempt to minimize corruption rather than just shrugging our shoulders?

Can the EU suspend the payments and on what grounds?
Since man created society and government there has alway been corruption .Of course you want to stop it and punish the corrupt and laws should be in place for that , but then who mades the laws and who appoints the judges and legislators the government .
 

Mad as Fish

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Kick Romania out of the EU and the 31billion of EU money saved will cover the UK's contribution.

Sorted.

Simples.

On a more serious note, this is the kind of behaviour that will be the EUs undoing.
Now you've touched on an interesting point.

We have the EU commission getting all nasty with the UK after they democratically decided to leave the EU and yet when another member more or less abandons attempts to outlaw and prosecute corruption all Junker can do is issue mealy mouthed statements about being 'concerned with the situation'.

As far as I am aware there is no mechanism for kicking a member out of the EU, but if there is I'm sure we would all like to hear about it.
 

Mad as Fish

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Since man created society and government there has alway been corruption .Of course you want to stop it and punish the corrupt and laws should be in place for that , but then who mades the laws and who appoints the judges and legislators the government .
So you agree that Romania should have laws in place to prosecute corruption?
 

Fractional Reserve

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Now you've touched on an interesting point.

We have the EU commission getting all nasty with the UK after they democratically decided to leave the EU and yet when another member more or less abandons attempts to outlaw and prosecute corruption all Junker can do is issue mealy mouthed statements about being 'concerned with the situation'.

As far as I am aware there is no mechanism for kicking a member out of the EU, but if there is I'm sure we would all like to hear about it.
This type of corruption doesn't threaten the EU so a bit of waffle blathering and faux concern will do nicely
 

Mad as Fish

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? I'm not seeing any connection between the two issues.

I'm going to play devil's advocate a wee bit. Corruption amongst the political elites in any country doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's merely an amplified form of what's going on in the wider society. I was in Romania (Bucharest) in 2011 and had a couple of good long chats with one of the guys who worked in the hotel where I stayed about similarities and differences between life in Ireland and Romania.

He once asked me if I'd ever bribed a policeman in Ireland, I had to laugh and reply "Absolutely not". There was one immediate and huge difference. In Romania, it's totally normal to bribe the police. So what the politicians are doing is a reflection of the wider society and while I applaud the protesters, how many of them could claim to never have sought or given a bribe?

"Be the change you want to see in the world", as Gandhi apparently say, at least not in those exact words.
So you are happy that the EU will be sending money to a country which has more or less said that it will not prosecute those who divert the funds into their own pockets rather than ensure it gets spent properly?
 


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