Cosgrave, Fitzgerald, O’Brien and Cooney + Dub. Mon. bombs

Abaddon

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(MOD - couldn't find a previous thread to do with Dublin Monaghan Bombings. If one is already there could you move this?)

The Daily Ireland has an interesting comment on line today.

http://www.dailyireland.com/home.tvt?_scope=DailyIreland/Content/Comment&id=22688&psv=1

The Northern Ireland Office memo, disclosed last week, confirmed not only that the British government knew the identities of the killers within four months of the attack but that the then secretary of state, Merlyn Rees, actually told Irish representatives at a meeting between the two governments that they had evidence that men they had recently interned were responsible for the bombings. These secret government papers, marked confidential, relate to a specific meeting between British and Irish government officials in September 1974. The then British prime minister, Harold Wilson, and secretary of state Merlyn Rees were both present at the meeting as well as two Irish ministers Dr Garret FitzGerald and Jim Tully. This is believed to be the first official recognition that the British know the identities of the UVF gang. The memo reads: “The Secretary of State said he was able to inform the Irish ministers, in confidence, that internment orders he had signed during the Ulster Workers’ Council Strike included the persons he believed to be responsible for the Dublin bombings.”
Did Garret FitzGerald feel that because the persons belived to be behind the bombings had been interned that it was case closed?

The refusal of former taoiseach Liam Cosgrave to co-operate with enquiries can no longer be tolerated.
Why would Liam Cosgrave not co-operate with an enquiry?

I find it hard to believe that any Irishman would assist in the covering up of this attack but considering their fear of upsurge in republican support, at the time, did Cosgrave, Fitzgerald, O'Brien and Cooney deliberately hinder and block a full investigation into these bombings for their own political gain?
 


White Horse

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Re: Cosgrave, Fitzgerald, O’Brien and Cooney + Dub. Mon. bom

Abaddon said:
I find it hard to believe that any Irishman would assist in the covering up of this attack but considering their fear of upsurge in republican support, at the time, did Cosgrave, Fitzgerald, O'Brien and Cooney deliberately hinder and block a full investigation into these bombings for their own political gain?
Or could it be that sufficient evidence did not exist to bring these bombers to justice?

Don't forget that many people were killed in the Birmingham pub bombings and the perpetrators are still free.

You are very quick to attribute bad motives to the distinguished persons mentioned above.

Does anything in FitzGerald's career show him to be capable of this level of deviousness. According to reviews of his career by FFers, he was a wooly headed, well intentioned, but hopelessly organised buffon.

Just the type to cover up major bombings!
 

farnaby

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This meeting is already referred to in the Interim Report on the Report of the Independent Commission of Inquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings(December 2003), with the following conclusion:

Notwithstanding the information supplied in the course of these meetings, there appears to have been no follow through by any of those who became aware of it. Nothing was apparently raised at the meeting. Names were not sought, nor the evidence which justified the internment, nor the allegation that they had been responsible for the Dublin bombing.

Following the meetings, there is no evidence that the information was passed, either to the Minister for Justice or any of his officials, or indeed to the Garda Commissioner or any other Garda officer. Certainly, Patrick Cooney, the then Minister for Justice was never made aware of it, nor is there any record of such information being passed to An Garda Síochána.

This absence of apparent interest in those interned, and in whatever evidence there was which indicated that some of them were involved in the Dublin bombings, strongly suggests that the Irish Government made no efforts to assist the investigation into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings at a political level. It is also surprising that they did not convey this information to An Garda Síochána. Gardaí did receive similar (though not as extensive) information from the RUC.
Sounds like a lot more going on than 'insufficient evidence'.
 

Kerrygold

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Re: Cosgrave, Fitzgerald, O’Brien and Cooney + Dub. Mon. bom

White Horse said:
Abaddon said:
I find it hard to believe that any Irishman would assist in the covering up of this attack but considering their fear of upsurge in republican support, at the time, did Cosgrave, Fitzgerald, O'Brien and Cooney deliberately hinder and block a full investigation into these bombings for their own political gain?
Or could it be that sufficient evidence did not exist to bring these bombers to justice?

Don't forget that many people were killed in the Birmingham pub bombings and the perpetrators are still free.

Actually, the Balcombe Street 4 admitted responsibility for this attack and they were in prison between 1975 and 1998. Along with 6 innocent Irish people.

Your point is irrelevant however.
 

White Horse

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Re: Cosgrave, Fitzgerald, O’Brien and Cooney + Dub. Mon. bom

[quote="Kerrygold]

Your point is irrelevant however.[/quote]

On the contrary, it shows that forensic science was not sufficiently developed to ensure safe prosecution.

I don't know why the bombers could not be brought to justice but I cannot see FitzGerald as this Machiavellian figure covering up the bombing.
 

Kerrygold

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Re: Cosgrave, Fitzgerald, O’Brien and Cooney + Dub. Mon. bom

White Horse said:
[quote="Kerrygold]

Your point is irrelevant however.
On the contrary, it shows that forensic science was not sufficiently developed to ensure safe prosecution.[/quote]

:shock:

'safe prosecution'! Are you completely insane. They knew they had the wrong people, but they framed them anyway.
 

White Horse

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Re: Cosgrave, Fitzgerald, O’Brien and Cooney + Dub. Mon. bom

Kerrygold said:
safe prosecution'! Are you completely insane. They knew they had the wrong people, but they framed them anyway.
As I recall the police had too much confidence in the forensic evidence. It convinced them they had the right guys. To ensure that they jury agreed they fabricated other evidence and with-held other evidence.

The appeal court decided that the verdict was unsafe.

One wonders what the verdict would have been had the police not fabricated evidence. Would there have been enough to convict?
 

Abaddon

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White Horse said:
Kerrygold said:
Your point is irrelevant however.
On the contrary, it shows that forensic science was not sufficiently developed to ensure safe prosecution.

I don't know why the bombers could not be brought to justice but I cannot see FitzGerald as this Machiavellian figure covering up the bombing.
That is assuming that forensic science is required for a prosecution in this case. I'm also sure that it has advanced enough since these bombings to be of some help.

As for your disregard for "FitzGerald as this Machiavellian figure" is this not a bit hastey considering that this man progressed through the ranks of his party to become leader and Taoiseach?
 

White Horse

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Abaddon said:
As for your disregard for "FitzGerald as this Machiavellian figure" is this not a bit hastey considering that this man progressed through the ranks of his party to become leader and Taoiseach?
Ask anyone, especially non-FGers about the concept of FitzGerald as a sinister Machiavellian figure and they'll collapse laughing!
 

rockofcashel

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Re: Cosgrave, Fitzgerald, O’Brien and Cooney + Dub. Mon. bom

White Horse said:
Kerrygold said:
safe prosecution'! Are you completely insane. They knew they had the wrong people, but they framed them anyway.
As I recall the police had too much confidence in the forensic evidence. It convinced them they had the right guys. To ensure that they jury agreed they fabricated other evidence and with-held other evidence.

The appeal court decided that the verdict was unsafe.

One wonders what the verdict would have been had the police not fabricated evidence. Would there have been enough to convict?
You do realise that the Balcombe Street Boys actually admitted to the Guildford, and I believe Birmingham bombs ?

Not releasing the people in jail for them had nothing to do with poor forensics. Releasing them would have necessitated an admission by the Police that they had framed them in the first place.

I suppose you still believe that Dean Lyons killed two women in Grangegorman
 

merle haggard

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eyewitnesses identified a number of gang members from garda mugshots in the immediate aftermath of the attacks yet no action was taken. While Belfast based UDA men who supplied the hijacked cars were interned in the north the key players in the bombing most definitely were not . They were members of the British crown forces and British intelligence agents and they carried on killing civilians in the 26 counties for years after the Dublin bombings with no attempt made whatsoever to stop them . On the contrary state cover ups persisted under that administration in the murders of Christy Phelan from Kildare and fine gael member Seamus Ludlow in co Louth to name but 2 . The same garda special branchman sent to investigate the Phelan murder attempted to frame his son for it , despite the discovery of a large bomb on the railway line next to phelans corpse intended to cause mass murder . He later told the Ludlow family also that their relative had been killed as an informer by his own family members , a strategy that seems quite deliberate. Unbelievably this individual was later picked to investigate claims of garda cover ups and collusion with British intelligence made by Fred Holroyd .
The case of Commandant Paddy Trears is also worth bearing in mind . During the tenure of that administration a garda special branchman based in Monaghan brought a British intelligence officer and explosives expert to Trears door shortly after the Dublin Monaghan bombings . The purpose of the visit was to recruit commandant trears as a British agent . Trears reported the approach and the gardas assistance in it but no action was taken . The garda nicknamed the badger later gave interviews and threatened to spill the beans on a great deal of murky goings on with British intelligence if he was ever investigated or sanctioned . Trears also reported that soon afterwards he became aware of intelligence which suggested this same British officer was nvolved in the DM massacre . What should also be remembered is that in the immediate aftermath of these bombings that govrnemnt did not show even the slightest inclination of going after the bombers . The evening of the slaughter they went on television and declared it was in fact the Irish people themselves who were chiefly responsible , an unbelievable position to adopt . Fitzgerald also personally intervened during this period to secure the release of a number of plain clothes British operatives who had been apprehended south of the border armed with items such as sawn off shotguns and daggers .

Highly disturbing also has been the menacing attitude the state took towards the victims of the bombings . While they were studiously ignored by officialdom and virtually no investigation took place , at street level they were treated as virtual subversives , menaced ,pointed at and photographed . Stopped in the streets and having their names taken . Even at a meeting of the Seamus Ludlow campaign group last year Special Branch officers were outside openly jotting down car registrations and taking names . Just as they did on the 20th anniversary of the DM bombings when finally the state decided to hold a mass of remembrance in the pro cathedral after finally being shamed into recognising the victims existence .

The contempt all these men named in this article have shown for the victims and the Irish people in refusing to offer any explanation for their actions is a disgrace . Of course there was a cover up . And its still going on with the files now dsappearing without explanation under this administration , from McDowells department as well as the Gardai and under his watch .
 

White Horse

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Re: Cosgrave, Fitzgerald, O’Brien and Cooney + Dub. Mon. bom

rockofcashel said:
You do realise that the Balcombe Street Boys actually admitted to the Guildford, and I believe Birmingham bombs ?

Not releasing the people in jail for them had nothing to do with poor forensics. Releasing them would have necessitated an admission by the Police that they had framed them in the first place.

I suppose you still believe that Dean Lyons killed two women in Grangegorman
I know nothing about Dean Lyons so I cannot comment.

I fully support the release of the Birmingham Six. There was evidence of falsifying evidence and their convictions were unsound. They are innocent under the law.
 

White Horse

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merle haggard said:
What should also be remembered is that in the immediate aftermath of these bombings that govrnemnt did not show even the slightest inclination of going after the bombers.
That is the job of the Guards not the government.


merle haggard said:
Even at a meeting of the Seamus Ludlow campaign group last year Special Branch officers were outside openly jotting down car registrations and taking names . Just as they did on the 20th anniversary of the DM bombings when finally the state decided to hold a mass of remembrance in the pro cathedral after finally being shamed into recognising the victims existence.

This is probably due to the victims suffering being hijacked by criminal elements for political purposes.

Honestly, this is all desperate rumour and conjecture.

I'm still trying to picture a Machiavellian Garret. :lol:
 

The OD

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Re: Cosgrave, Fitzgerald, O’Brien and Cooney + Dub. Mon. bom

White Horse said:
Kerrygold said:
safe prosecution'! Are you completely insane. They knew they had the wrong people, but they framed them anyway.
As I recall the police had too much confidence in the forensic evidence. It convinced them they had the right guys. To ensure that they jury agreed they fabricated other evidence and with-held other evidence.

The appeal court decided that the verdict was unsafe.

One wonders what the verdict would have been had the police not fabricated evidence. Would there have been enough to convict?
Next on P.ie, White Horse discusses the merits of Pol Pot, argues about how J Stalin wasnt the worst bloke in the World and ponders on how Pinochet 'saved' his people.....

Abaddon said:
As for your disregard for "FitzGerald as this Machiavellian figure" is this not a bit hastey considering that this man progressed through the ranks of his party to become leader and Taoiseach?
Well if he was truly as machiavellian as its purported he is then of course it would seem ridiculous, wouldnt it?
 

merle haggard

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White Horse said:
[quote="merle haggard":z5gu9ooy] What should also be remembered is that in the immediate aftermath of these bombings that govrnemnt did not show even the slightest inclination of going after the bombers.[/quote]

That is the job of the Guards not the government.

rubbish . Fitzgerald by his own admission personally intervened in the Garda investigation which saw 2 carloads of British undercover operatives apprahened in the south and had the charges dropped . The government clearly had a great deal of influence in such investigations .


merle haggard said:
Even at a meeting of the Seamus Ludlow campaign group last year Special Branch officers were outside openly jotting down car registrations and taking names . Just as they did on the 20th anniversary of the DM bombings when finally the state decided to hold a mass of remembrance in the pro cathedral after finally being shamed into recognising the victims existence


This is probably due to the victims suffering being hijacked by criminal elements for political purposes.
[/quote:z5gu9ooy]

the above comment is beneath contempt and worthy only of a dirtbag .
 

Bogwarrior

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Still waiting for Fitzgerald and Co's stinging rejection and denial of politically covering up mass murder.
Good post Merle, wasn't this Badger fella involved in leading Brits to an arms dump in the 26 Counties, where they rigged a rocket launcher to explode early? I think it's in Holroyds book. A man later died when it prematurely exploded in Newry. Is the Badger still alive? Is he publicly identified yet?
 

merle haggard

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Detective Sergeant John McCoy is still alive certainly ,and even went public in the Indo and later the sunday world . He effectively blackmailed the state into leaving him alone

In 1984 Holroyd dropped the Garda Siochana in the shit when he talked openly during a BBC Breakfast television interview about his undercover contacts with members of the Republic's police force. This prompted an initial internal Garda inquiry into Holroyd's allegations, headed by Chief Superintendent Dan Murphy. Murphy's inquiry failed to interview the former Military Intelligence Officer who had been attached to 3 Brigade, Portadown and who was also working to Craig Smellie, head of MI6 Northern Ireland. Murphy's findings were not made public.

Rumours began to circulate as to the identity of Holroyd's Garda contacts. The temperature began to rise in August 1986 when the Director of Irish Army Intelligence, Colonel Desmond Swan, presented a report to Garda Commissioner Laurence Wren detailing Garda links with British Army personnel. The report was based on Army intelligence files, one of which gave details of a visit to Dublin in 1974 by a serving detective Garda and a British Army officer, Major Peter Maynard.

On 20 January 1987 the Irish Independent carried an interview by journalist Brendan O'Brien with a serving detective garda whom British undercover had code named 'The Badger'. It was a scoop for O'Brien but a calculated decision by the garda detective who was clearly feeling the heat. In the interview the 'The Badger' gave tantalising details of his long established 'double' career. It began, he told O'Brien, in 1972 when a friend "with connections in Co. Armagh" told him a fellow in the North wanted to meet "some kind of policeman". He travelled to Lurgan were he met four plainclothed men, one of whom was Sergeant Bernard 'Bunny' Dearsley, a Field Intelligence NCO, who preceeded Holroyd and later acted as Holroyd intelligence assistant.

Dearsley clearly stated that they were British Army and wanted to exchange intelligence on 'terrorists'. 'The Badger' was to supply intelligence on the IRA/INLA and his British counterparts were to reciprocate with intelligence on Loyalist terrorists who might cause a threat to the Republic. Thus began a long running courtship between an officer of An Garda Siochana and British Military Intelligence.

On 3 May 1987 'The Badger' went public again, this time in the Sunday World. On this occasion his full identity was revealed. He was named as Detective Garda John McCoy, stationed at Monaghan Garda Station. In this interview with journalist Liam Clarke, the Badger went further, "claiming that he was only one of a string of gardai who did the same thing..." In an interview I conducted with Fred Holroyd at his Southend home on 15 December 1998, he told me that the Badger was "only the tip of the iceberg".

Sean Flynn, the Irish Times Security Correspondent, wrote on 18 May 1987, "In Garda circles, the interview is seen as a signal to more senior officers that Detective Garda McCoy may be prepared to disclose further details of Garda liaison with the British Army at that time, if any disciplinary action is taken against him."

McCoy's interviews must be seen in the context of two internal Garda inquiries conducted in the first half of 1987 into Holroyd's allegations. The first was lead by Detective Superintendent Hubert Reynolds and Detective Inspector Jack Hennessy, who completed their report in April. While this Inquiry did interview a former Garda Commissioner, Edmund Garvey, it did not interview serving officers above the rank of superintendent. Holroyd, who had stated his willingness to co-operate with the Reynolds/Hennessy investigation, was not interviewed. He was furious and says he complained to the Irish Ambassador in London, Noel Dorr. A third 'Holroyd Inquiry' was held in May 1987, under Chief Superintendent Tom Kelly.


http://www.relativesforjustice.com/publ ... naghan.htm
 

Abaddon

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White Horse said:
Abaddon said:
As for your disregard for "FitzGerald as this Machiavellian figure" is this not a bit hastey considering that this man progressed through the ranks of his party to become leader and Taoiseach?
Ask anyone, especially non-FGers about the concept of FitzGerald as a sinister Machiavellian figure and they'll collapse laughing!
I would like to believe that and hope it is true.

But would you believe the same of Cosgrave, O'Brien and Cooney?

I was only a child when these bombings occurred but from what books I have read and programs I have watched, there appears to be quite a bit of fear of;

- an increase of public support for republicans
- in Ireland, a rise in anti-British feeling

Given the unwanted position the Irish government found themselves in and the pressure they may have been under from the British, is it not likely that some in the government and certain units of Gardaí made decisions based on the politics of the situation without consideration for the victims and the public?
 


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