Could Howlin learn a lesson from the UK's GE

Disillusioned democrat

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The GE in the UK demonstrated how the electorate can ignore a lot of lies, incompetence and bluster when faced with the alternative of voting for someone they despise and/or someone who can't articulate an alternative vision.

I believe sadly that Brendan Howlin is much like Corbyn, although not ideologically , for sure.

Howlin has no vision - just a clear understanding of what's wrong with everyone else's vision despite being instrumental in delivering that vision while in government. Howlin and Bruton were Ministers when a Labour president signed REITs into law and the rest, as they say, is history - it was part of achieving the dystopian reality of misery we're faced with today.

Howlin is a terrible leader, a terrible visionary and a terrible manager - he will prevent the Labour Party achieving any real momentum in the next election at a time when the country desperately needs a strong balancing force in the country's governance.

By staying in the game he, like Corbyn, is ignoring the fact that people just don't like him and won't take Labour seriously while the wee man still puffs himself up and preaches about everything we need to do while, like his fello party member the President, does very differet things.

It's depressing that one man's ego is blocking the Labour Party from having a fair shot at the next election - it's depressing that there hasn't been a root and branch transformation of Labour since the last election.
 


hiding behind a poster

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Howlin has no vision - just a clear understanding of what's wrong with everyone else's vision despite being instrumental in delivering that vision while in government. Howlin and Bruton were Ministers when a Labour president signed REITs into law and the rest, as they say, is history - it was part of achieving the dystopian reality of misery we're faced with today.
Care to explain that theory, via some sort of cause and effect model?
 

Mickeymac

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I vaguely remember some poster saying they became absolete some time ago.
 

Baron von Biffo

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The GE in the UK demonstrated how the electorate can ignore a lot of lies, incompetence and bluster when faced with the alternative of voting for someone they despise and/or someone who can't articulate an alternative vision.

I believe sadly that Brendan Howlin is much like Corbyn, although not ideologically , for sure.
Howlin isn't at all like Corbyn. People thought enough of Corbyn to take the trouble to hate him. Howlin would struggle to reach apathy.

Howlin has no vision - just a clear understanding of what's wrong with everyone else's vision despite being instrumental in delivering that vision while in government. Howlin and Bruton were Ministers when a Labour president signed REITs into law and the rest, as they say, is history - it was part of achieving the dystopian reality of misery we're faced with today.

Howlin is a terrible leader, a terrible visionary and a terrible manager - he will prevent the Labour Party achieving any real momentum in the next election at a time when the country desperately needs a strong balancing force in the country's governance.

By staying in the game he, like Corbyn, is ignoring the fact that people just don't like him and won't take Labour seriously while the wee man still puffs himself up and preaches about everything we need to do while, like his fello party member the President, does very differet things.

It's depressing that one man's ego is blocking the Labour Party from having a fair shot at the next election - it's depressing that there hasn't been a root and branch transformation of Labour since the last election.
Higgins won the largest mandate of any Irish politician and your average punter hasn't a clue what REITs are so neither of those things are harming Lab.

Howlin's major problem is his invisibility. With Martin restricted by the C&S deal and McDonald dragging SF beneath the waves there's an open vacancy for a good opposition leader in this Dail. Sadly for Lab Howlin hasn't been good enough to fill it.
 

Dame_Enda

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A lot of the commentary from the British press and commentators has been that the result was a rejection of the "woke movement" in the British Labour Party.

Whether this is applicable to Irish politics is debatable. I think the underlying issue in the UK was Brexit, But I also think people in the North of England are known for being straight-talking and quite blunt, and as such probably have little patience for Political Correctness and wokeness. The fact that those preaching PCness and wokeness to them often have bags of money and live in the wealthy southeast does not improve their persuasiveness for the less well off North of England. Their enthusiasm for renewable energy probably doesn't appeal to former coal-miners and whats left of blue collar workers there in fossil fuel intensive industries. There has been some fracking in the North of England, though Boris imposed a moratorium (will it continue?).

How much of this is applicable as a lesson for the Irish left is debatable. Unlike the UK, cultural-wokeness and Identity Politics is also popular in parties outside the Irish Left. We have a more consensus-driven politics than Britain, rather than a Left-Right one. If we see more traditional Nationalist and religious parties winning seats in the South of Ireland, then we might be able to say that people are tiring of wokeness. But I have not seen any evidence the Irish Labour party or the Left would move to the Centre on issues like migration - not least because the Centre hasn't even moved to the Centre on it in Ireland. Remember the pushback Pat Rabbitte got from liberals in his party when he raised migration as something that needed to be "managed", after his remarks on "40 million Poles"?

If they haven't changed enough on this issue, it could be argued they changed too much in embracing FG-led austerity while in government. The consequences we are seeing in our health service and homelessness crisis.

I think for some in Irish Labour (and the Left of UK Labour), so-called "moral victories" matter more to them than electoral ones.
 
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redneck

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Irish labour is largely irrelevant. They have had their time. It is gone.
 

jmcc

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Irish labour is largely irrelevant. They have had their time. It is gone.
Union Jack O'Connor and a few other Labour heads were over the in UK campaigning for Corbyn and UK Labour. Perhaps they want to make Ireland part of the UK?
 

shiel

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Irish labour is largely irrelevant. They have had their time. It is gone.
Well no.

It is the oldest party in the state.

Howlin was not part of a government that bankrupt the country.

He was part of the government that helped to clean up some of the mess.

Martin was part of the government that bankrupt the country.

But the Irish media blame Howlin and want Martin back in government.

Pathetic is too mild a word.
 

redneck

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It is the oldest party in the State. Yes it looks the oldest too. I am told 6 out of 7 TD's are millionaires.
Nothing wrong with that, but do they really represent Working class communities?
Sorry for being negative. I am an ex Labour member. They played an important part in the rebuilding of Ireland. And have played a constructive role ususally.
 

Disillusioned democrat

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It is the oldest party in the State. Yes it looks the oldest too. I am told 6 out of 7 TD's are millionaires.
Nothing wrong with that, but do they really represent Working class communities?
Sorry for being negative. I am an ex Labour member. They played an important part in the rebuilding of Ireland. And have played a constructive role ususally.
Labour should be the default ABFFG party...anyone who believes there's a better way to deliver a fairer recovery, such as it has been, should be queuing up to vote Labour at the next GE, but instead they're frantically looking elsewhere - at single issue independents or populists.

It's pure mad - the lesson from the UK should be that faces matter - Labour lost against a misogynist liar elitist because the media focused on Corbyn, and the same could happen here. Many people can't get past Howlin's complete lack of suitability for the role as leader of the party - he's a millionaire pretending to represent those working to pay 50% of their disposable income on rent, he was a non-entity in the austerity government and a cheerleader of public spending before the crash. He genuinely irritates people with his pontificating and has let Labour become the play thing of the liberal academics like Bacik rather than a party that actually knows anything about PAYE.

There's less than 6 months to go before GE 2020 and bizarrely at a time when Labour should be pulling out all the stops at local level and absolutely ditching Howlin they seem to have grown ever quieter and more irrelevant.

I'd be a Labour voter by nature, but haven't had the stomach for them since Gilmore was in charge and their leaders have only been getting worse, not better, since then.

There's a huge section of Ireland's electorate that want someone to look after their best interest - 2m workers paying PAYE that are being squeezed by FFG - that are looking for an alternative to the myriad of fractious left parties...why can't Labour fill THAT gap?
 

shiel

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Labour should be the default ABFFG party...anyone who believes there's a better way to deliver a fairer recovery, such as it has been, should be queuing up to vote Labour at the next GE, but instead they're frantically looking elsewhere - at single issue independents or populists.

It's pure mad - the lesson from the UK should be that faces matter - Labour lost against a misogynist liar elitist because the media focused on Corbyn, and the same could happen here. Many people can't get past Howlin's complete lack of suitability for the role as leader of the party - he's a millionaire pretending to represent those working to pay 50% of their disposable income on rent, he was a non-entity in the austerity government and a cheerleader of public spending before the crash. He genuinely irritates people with his pontificating and has let Labour become the play thing of the liberal academics like Bacik rather than a party that actually knows anything about PAYE.

There's less than 6 months to go before GE 2020 and bizarrely at a time when Labour should be pulling out all the stops at local level and absolutely ditching Howlin they seem to have grown ever quieter and more irrelevant.

I'd be a Labour voter by nature, but haven't had the stomach for them since Gilmore was in charge and their leaders have only been getting worse, not better, since then.

There's a huge section of Ireland's electorate that want someone to look after their best interest - 2m workers paying PAYE that are being squeezed by FFG - that are looking for an alternative to the myriad of fractious left parties...why can't Labour fill THAT gap?
The Irish media are cheer leading Martin back into power.

Martin was part of the government which together with the financial institutions bankrupt the country.

Howlin was part of the government that cleaned up some of the mess.

But media want the people who bankrupt the country back in government.
 

BACKTOBASICS

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Union Jack O'Connor and a few other Labour heads were over the in UK campaigning for Corbyn and UK Labour. Perhaps they want to make Ireland part of the UK?
I don't think anybody would have known who Jack O'Connor was, but to give him a bit of credit, he appears to have helped to bury labour - real deep - listening to him would have instilled deep boredom in his listeners. They fell asleep and forgot/never heard what he said.
 

shiel

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Dame Enda
If they haven't changed enough on this issue, it could be argued they changed too much in embracing FG-led austerity while in government. The consequences we are seeing in our health service and homelessness crisis.

I think for some in Irish Labour (and the Left of UK Labour), so-called "moral victories" matter more to them than electoral ones.
[/QUOTE]

The problems in health, housing, homelessness are due to the decisions made pre-2009.

Blaming the people who had to clean up some of the mess post the collapse in 2010 is not defensible.

But Irish media are doing that because they have an agenda to restoring the people who bankrupt the country to government.
 


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