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Could "people power" stall the economy to force an election ?


NoPropertyTax

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
9
For those of us who believe the current governments policies (tax and cut) are wrong and counter-productive, the only "weapon" we have is our consumer spending power , and if enough people could be persuaded to take part in some kind of national spending strike, would that stall out the economy to the extent that it would force the government to call an election ?
What I mean is some kind of non-essential spending strike, to try and make things worse now in order to make things better in the long run. The objective would be to try and convince people to postpone spending / hiring / etc until we have an election, and then release that money / jobs into the economy once we have a new government with a mandate.
It goes to the heart of what type of recovery we want ? A Fianna Fail / Green "recovery" which would be a balanceing of the budget on paper and a reduction of the deficit, but which leaves the people of the country in serious poverty, with penal rate taxes and slashed public services. Or a genuine recovery where a stimulus package leads to higher consumer confidence leads to more sales, new jobs, and a rising tax revenue as a result of more economic activity.
What do you think of the idea of a national spending strike to try and bring matters to a head and force an election ? Would it work ? If organisations like the ESRI, OECD etc said an election should be called as the only way to save the economy would the government have no option but to call one as their patriotic duty ?
 

jimbo99

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 2, 2009
Messages
574
For those of us who believe the current governments policies (tax and cut) are wrong and counter-productive, the only "weapon" we have is our consumer spending power , and if enough people could be persuaded to take part in some kind of national spending strike, would that stall out the economy to the extent that it would force the government to call an election ?
What I mean is some kind of non-essential spending strike, to try and make things worse now in order to make things better in the long run. The objective would be to try and convince people to postpone spending / hiring / etc until we have an election, and then release that money / jobs into the economy once we have a new government with a mandate.
It goes to the heart of what type of recovery we want ? A Fianna Fail / Green "recovery" which would be a balanceing of the budget on paper and a reduction of the deficit, but which leaves the people of the country in serious poverty, with penal rate taxes and slashed public services. Or a genuine recovery where a stimulus package leads to higher consumer confidence leads to more sales, new jobs, and a rising tax revenue as a result of more economic activity.
What do you think of the idea of a national spending strike to try and bring matters to a head and force an election ? Would it work ? If organisations like the ESRI, OECD etc said an election should be called as the only way to save the economy would the government have no option but to call one as their patriotic duty ?
That consumer spending strike is already underway. Ask any retail business today. People have realised that they have no confidence in this government and have definately answered with their chequebooks. This collapse in spending is one of the main reasons we have a 20billion defecit. The message about this "strike " is not really being spread by the national media however.
 

bactrian

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2004
Messages
1,226
Hey!! What a great idea!!

Let's stop spending and put people out of jobs. That's sure to improve things. It will promote equality. Everyone will be poor.

And maybe we should all burn down our houses so that we can show solidarity with the homeless.

Magnificent.
 

goosebump

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
4,953

jimbo99

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 2, 2009
Messages
574
Hey!! What a great idea!!

Let's stop spending and put people out of jobs. That's sure to improve things. It will promote equality. Everyone will be poor.

And maybe we should all burn down our houses so that we can show solidarity with the homeless.

Magnificent.
Unfortunately it is already happening. People are saving rather than spend and travelling North in large numbers to pay their spending taxes. People are losing their jobs and people are becoming poor. The guy in charge of Curry's in Newry was on radio recently saying that 83% of TV's sold at Christmas were sold to residents of the Republic.

Your comment on burning houses is just stupid and doesn't do you any justice.
 

st333ve

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 18, 2006
Messages
2,104
The might of Irish protestors come out to face up the state!

 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,863
For those of us who believe the current governments policies (tax and cut) are wrong and counter-productive, the only "weapon" we have is our consumer spending power , and if enough people could be persuaded to take part in some kind of national spending strike, would that stall out the economy to the extent that it would force the government to call an election ?
For consumers to have "spending power" they first have to earn the money.

Under the previous Government we built an economy on borrowed money.

Between 1997 and 2007 non-Government borrowing went from 20Billion to 400 Billion

We now have to service that debt, and repay that debt.

But our ability to earn money with which to do this is severely hampered because we spent ten years building houses and sheds instead of businesses that can export goods and services, and bring in earnings.

Read this article, and then decide if our long term interests are better served by borrowing more, or by getting our house in order.

A legacy of debt is not the best start for our children | David McWilliams

..
.
 

NoPropertyTax

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
9
It is a radical solution, but if anyone has any better ideas on (legal and constitutional) ways to try and remove an un-elected Taoiseach who is operating without a popular mandate, then please post them.

Strikes, protest marches, work to rules, petitions have achieved nothing. The only time the government did a U turn on a tax rise was when the VAT increase proved to be counter-productive. So I am saying the only way to get the government to open a dialogue with its own people is to make them realise that any recovery must help people rather than hurt people.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,863
It is a radical solution, but if anyone has any better ideas on (legal and constitutional) ways to try and remove an un-elected Taoiseach who is operating without a popular mandate, then please post them.

Strikes, protest marches, work to rules, petitions have achieved nothing. The only time the government did a U turn on a tax rise was when the VAT increase proved to be counter-productive. So I am saying the only way to get the government to open a dialogue with its own people is to make them realise that any recovery must help people rather than hurt people.
I think you will find that the Taoiseach WAS elected. He topped the poll in Laois-Offaly with 1.6 quotas.

The people don't vote for the Taoiseach, they vote for the 166 TDs, and the 166 TDs vote for the Taoiseach.

The current choice of the 166 TDs is Brian Cowen.

The current 166TDs have a mandate until 2014 under the Constitution, then the electorate get to choose a new 166 TDs.

..
.
 

jimbo99

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Joined
Jul 2, 2009
Messages
574
I think you will find that the Taoiseach WAS elected. He topped the poll in Laois-Offaly with 1.6 quotas.

The people don't vote for the Taoiseach, they vote for the 166 TDs, and the 166 TDs vote for the Taoiseach.

The current choice of the 166 TDs is Brian Cowen.

The current 166TDs have a mandate until 2014 under the Constitution, then the electorate get to choose a new 166 TDs.

..
.
That mandate is gladly looking very shaky now. Thanks toJODWOD.
 

NoPropertyTax

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
9
I think you will find that the Taoiseach WAS elected. He topped the poll in Laois-Offaly with 1.6 quotas.

The people don't vote for the Taoiseach, they vote for the 166 TDs, and the 166 TDs vote for the Taoiseach.

The current choice of the 166 TDs is Brian Cowen.

The current 166TDs have a mandate until 2014 under the Constitution, then the electorate get to choose a new 166 TDs.

..
.
Yes thats correct. But what I mean is the moral mandate to continue in office when they are doing the total opposite of what they were elected to do. In the 07 election Fianna Fail and Bertie Ahern ran (and got elected) on a platform / manifesto of prosperity for ordinary people, fair taxes, growth, looking after people and making their lives better and happier. Instead since Brian Cowen took over we have massive bailouts for property developers and rich bankers, higher taxes, levies, cuts, and an obsession with the public finances deficit which has wrecked the country.
 

SPN

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
Messages
16,863
Yes thats correct. But what I mean is the moral mandate to continue in office when they are doing the total opposite of what they were elected to do. In the 07 election Fianna Fail and Bertie Ahern ran (and got elected) on a platform / manifesto of prosperity for ordinary people, fair taxes, growth, looking after people and making their lives better and happier. Instead since Brian Cowen took over we have massive bailouts for property developers and rich bankers, higher taxes, levies, cuts, and an obsession with the public finances deficit which has wrecked the country.
Things change. The World Banking system collapsed. Deal with it.

..
.
 

goosebump

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
4,953
But what I mean is the moral mandate to continue
There is no such thing as a moral mandate.

Electoral mandates arise from the number of votes in a ballot box. End of story.
 

markeys

Active member
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
273
Forget about a spending strike.

What's needed is a tax strike. If everybody withheld their taxes, the whole government would collaspe. Everybody know the government has lost the moral authority to govern, the people have no faith in them whatsoever to improve the situation. They caused it.

An election is needed and were FF/Greens concerned with the people rather than their own mercs and mud dragging incompetence and standards, they'd call one to seek a fresh mandate. Any half wit would do the decent thing.

Sadly the government and the state boards are full of gombeen greeedy twats where party comes before any interest in the people of the Republic.
 

NoPropertyTax

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
9
Yes, but Fianna Fail broke the terms of their "contract" with the Irish people who voted for them in 07, by changing not only their leader, but the entire direction and policy the party stood for.
When that happens , the people should have some legal way to express their anger and try to force the government to either return to the polices they were elected on, or to seek a new mandate for the policies which are completly different.
The only way I can think of is a spending strike. It would be for a short period of time, designed to be a way for anyone who feels angry and betrayed by the government to hit them back, and show that without popular consent and support there won't be any real recovery. In effect trying to delay any recovery until we get a general election and a chance to have our vote on what measures will and won't be brought in.
I am challenging this consensus that everyone wants a "recovery" (on paper rather than in reality) in time for Fianna Fail to be re-elected in 2012
 

MPB

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2009
Messages
4,465
Forget about a spending strike.

What's needed is a tax strike. If everybody withheld their taxes, the whole government would collaspe. Everybody know the government has lost the moral authority to govern, the people have no faith in them whatsoever to improve the situation. They caused it.

An election is needed and were FF/Greens concerned with the people rather than their own mercs and mud dragging incompetence and standards, they'd call one to seek a fresh mandate. Any half wit would do the decent thing.

Sadly the government and the state boards are full of gombeen greeedy twats where party comes before any interest in the people of the Republic.
A tax strike could not work as most tax is taken at source, so it is gone before you get it.

But a mortgage strike would work if the will was there to enact it.

The Banks are the Govts biggest weakness and cash flow is the Banks biggest weakness.

Our strength is the money we owe. Withold the money we owe and we can get more or less anything we want.
 

timetochange

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Jun 10, 2009
Messages
149
Website
www.facebook.com
It is a radical solution, but if anyone has any better ideas on (legal and constitutional) ways to try and remove an un-elected Taoiseach who is operating without a popular mandate, then please post them.

Strikes, protest marches, work to rules, petitions have achieved nothing. The only time the government did a U turn on a tax rise was when the VAT increase proved to be counter-productive. So I am saying the only way to get the government to open a dialogue with its own people is to make them realise that any recovery must help people rather than hurt people.
yea and it took him a year! he should have reversed it a hell of a lot sooner than that!
 

jimbo99

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Joined
Jul 2, 2009
Messages
574
yea and it took him a year! he should have reversed it a hell of a lot sooner than that!
Yea and he shouldn't have imposed it half way through a VAT period and 11 months through VAt year. Shows how much he knows about business.
 
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
1
In effect trying to delay any recovery until we get a general election and a chance to have our vote on what measures will and won't be brought in.
I am challenging this consensus that everyone wants a "recovery" (on paper rather than in reality) in time for Fianna Fail to be re-elected in 2012
Hang on, is that not cutting off your nose to spite your face? I can follow the argument of forcing an election to bring in a new gov who will presumably bring about the recovery, but deliberately stalling a recovery specifically to punish FF is stretching it.

A spending strike would effectively be targetting the domestic economy. Given current and forecast growth rates for this sector we know that any companies put out of business and any jobs lost will not be coming back for a long, long time. You'd be consigning even more people to long term unemployment.

Personally I'm not sure an election would do much to good anyway, given the lack of credible alternatives to govern, but that's possibly a seperate argument...
 
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