Could The Irish Army Muntiny in 1924 Have Led to More Troubles?

General Urko

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Demobilisation of the Free Sate Army of 55,000 post civil war down to about 18,000 almost led to a fight between its 2 major factions - The Council/IRB and the IRAO, fortunately it seems Kevin O'Higgins with help from Minister Jack McGrath saved the day in the face of a weake willed WT Cosgrave and a Richard Mulcahy aka 'Dirty Dick' restraining himself!

Could this have turned into another civil war?
I would certainly take into consideration that Fascist Organizations tend to be rather fractured and such an infighting outcome in them is probably the rule rather than an exception!petunia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Mutiny

Decisive leadership and selflessness saved the nation after the Army Mutiny | Irish Examiner

March 10th, 1924

http://ecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2751&context=luc_diss

https://www.jstor.org/stable/30008386?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Army Mutiny 1924 | The Irish Story
 


General Urko

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Well did any of ye ever hear of it?
 

General Urko

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Well lads?
 

between the bridges

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Twas all the Brits fault...
 

johnhan278

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Ascertaining the truth behind events is what matters, not hypotheticals.
Counterfactual history done in such broad strokes allows people to rewrite history according to their present-day purposes and prejudices.
 

GDPR

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They secured Parliamentary Democracy here in a good way in that there doing so made CnG bow peacefully to the FF victory in election. Major General Liam Tobin is one of the unsung heroes of Irish history, he stayed with Collins who whatever way you look it at is one of the chief villains of our past out of personal loyalty but had the humility later to join Fianna Fail.
 

General Urko

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There was a power struggle within the army at the time The IRAO Faction, had caused embarrassment e.g. after the killing of Noel Lemeas (the Free staters thought they had Séan!), 2 civilians complained about being tortured by the Free Sate War Criminals and The IRAO subsequently threatened to murder them! Also The IRAO felt the central army council faction/secretive IRB had betrayed Collins who viewed partition as the freedom to achieve more freedom when they acted like partition meant all was settled.
The conflict between the army factions shows up WT's lack of control over the army and it's also laughable that Dirty Dick is perceived as a bit of a hero for biting his lip and not having the opposing lads murdered!
Essentially if the central army/IRB get their way and purged the boyos, I cannot see a peaceful transfer of power to The Mafia Ladz in '32!
Interesting the notion of throwing a coupla pound at a situation to make it go away may have started here as the IRAO Bucks were promised military pensions to do just that! Mind you that's really an Eff Eff Thing.
 

General Urko

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I'd say you're a barrel of laughs at a party
Oddly enough historians with a left wing view such as Richard Evans, tend to dis counterfactuals! I am a Socialist to the core of my being and I love them.
This thread was intended as to be a general exploration of the army mutiny of 1924 and not just a what if!
 

wombat

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Well did any of ye ever hear of it?
Heard of it but it seems all that happened was that a lot of high ranking officers resigned" I once heard Mulcahy's son talking about his father's belief - simply he believed that the army was subordinate to parliament. From what I read this was the basis of the split in the IRB, the oath was to a democratic republic and the split was between the emphasis on democratic or republic or the right of the people to be wrong.
 

General Urko

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WT had limited if any control of the army, it still does not absolve him from his war crimes though!
 

wombat

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WT had limited if any control of the army, it still does not absolve him from his war crimes though!
Will you ever get over the war crimes sh1t. We didn't have a war, we had a civil war, fought between 2 factions of a revolutionary organisation. They gave themselves military titles but apart from Emmett Dalton, I don't know anyone who had reached officer rank in a conventional army.
 

McTell

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No
How could we afford to pay 55,000 soldiers? Most had to go.

As usual, the real debate was "him or me" for nice pensionable jobs. Nothing to do with the good of the taxpayer.

There was a storm in a teacup and then they gave up.
 

General Urko

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How could we afford to pay 55,000 soldiers? Most had to go.

As usual, the real debate was "him or me" for nice pensionable jobs. Nothing to do with the good of the taxpayer.

There was a storm in a teacup and then they gave up.
It was probably more significant than that!
 

General Urko

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Will you ever get over the war crimes sh1t. We didn't have a war, we had a civil war, fought between 2 factions of a revolutionary organisation. They gave themselves military titles but apart from Emmett Dalton, I don't know anyone who had reached officer rank in a conventional army.
Weapons were used during that war e.g. guns firing imploding on impact bullets which were considered at war crime level and then there was the murder of prisoners!
 

Bleu Poppy

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There was a power struggle within the army at the time The IRAO Faction, had caused embarrassment e.g. after the killing of Noel Lemeas (the Free staters thought they had Séan!), 2 civilians complained about being tortured by the Free Sate War Criminals and The IRAO subsequently threatened to murder them! Also The IRAO felt the central army council faction/secretive IRB had betrayed Collins who viewed partition as the freedom to achieve more freedom when they acted like partition meant all was settled.
The conflict between the army factions shows up WT's lack of control over the army and it's also laughable that Dirty Dick is perceived as a bit of a hero for biting his lip and not having the opposing lads murdered!
Essentially if the central army/IRB get their way and purged the boyos, I cannot see a peaceful transfer of power to The Mafia Ladz in '32!
Interesting the notion of throwing a coupla pound at a situation to make it go away may have started here as the IRAO Bucks were promised military pensions to do just that! Mind you that's really an Eff Eff Thing.
Fantastic objectivity shown there.

Added to your previous posts, it is clear that you have not got a clue as to what fascism is about.

Griffith and Collins, O'Higgins and Cosgrave, Mulcahy and O'Connell, and others on the Pro-Treaty side fought to ensure that a meaningful democracy was established here.

The Sh1te about former members of the Second Dáil vesting the power to govern Ireland in the I.R.A.'s Army Council years after they had lost their seats is the proof as to who the fascists were.... and where such types are to be found down to this day.
 

Bleu Poppy

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Weapons were used during that war e.g. guns firing imploding on impact bullets which were considered at war crime level and then there was the murder of prisoners!
Indeed- like the National Army Lieutenant and six of his men found at Ballinagaddy outside Kilmallock in August 1922. Hands tied behind their backs, a bullet in each of their heads. As a socialist you'll appreciate the similarities with Stalin's Katyn Forest Massacre, I'm sure.

The MaFFia, Shinners, Continuers, Unrealists, Daft IRA, have had the apparent right to present a one-sided version of that sad chapter in our history. However, the Military History of the Irish Civil War did much to balance the record.

Feel free to invite me, by your actions and words, to present further aspects of the hidden history of the Irish Civil War for posterity.
 

General Urko

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Fantastic objectivity shown there.

Added to your previous posts, it is clear that you have not got a clue as to what fascism is about.

Griffith and Collins, O'Higgins and Cosgrave, Mulcahy and O'Connell, and others on the Pro-Treaty side fought to ensure that a meaningful democracy was established here.

The Sh1te about former members of the Second Dáil vesting the power to govern Ireland in the I.R.A.'s Army Council years after they had lost their seats is the proof as to who the fascists were.... and where such types are to be found down to this day.
Yeah and some democracy we got alright, bleeding skulls and rape threats at Rosport and water tax demonstrations prove that!:mad:

And for your Ladz -

http://www.politics.ie/forum/history/211162-how-different-would-ireland-if-fine-gael-had-been-major-party-13.html
 

McTell

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No
Weapons were used during that war e.g. guns firing imploding on impact bullets which were considered at war crime level and then there was the murder of prisoners!

None of us had signed the geneva convention.... (da bleedin' wha' ??)
 

Éireann_Ascendant

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eireannascenda
Heard of it but it seems all that happened was that a lot of high ranking officers resigned" I once heard Mulcahy's son talking about his father's belief - simply he believed that the army was subordinate to parliament. From what I read this was the basis of the split in the IRB, the oath was to a democratic republic and the split was between the emphasis on democratic or republic or the right of the people to be wrong.
The notable thing about Mulcahy during the Army Crisis is how willing he was to fall on his sword. The major complaint against him is that he had negotiated with the IRAO behind the government's back - when in fact he had done so with Cosgrave's full knowledge.

Yet he made no complaint when Cosgrave left him to dry, and resigned along with the rest of the Army Council - truly the measure of the man.
 


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