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Creed of Just War to be abolished?

Nebuchadnezzar

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The Catholic doctrine of Just War dates back to St Augustine in the 5th C AD. It attempts to accommodate the Comandment Thou Shalt Not Kill with the realities of a violent world and to justify those with responsibility and duty to deal with that violent world.

Cardinal Peter Turkson, widely seen as a leading candidate for future Pope, is leading a push for this doctrine to be abandoned and for the Church to formally embrace pacifism. A Vatican conference held by Pax Christi and Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace(headed by Cardinal Turkson)released a statement calling upon Pope Francis to write an encyclical on peace and non-violence, and calls on Catholic institutions to no longer use or teach Just War theory.

Clearly, the Word of God, the witness of Jesus, should never be used to justify violence, injustice or war. We confess the people of God have betrayed this central message of the Gospel many times, participating in wars, persecution, oppression, exploitation, and discrimination.
Seemingly many of the conference attendees expressed the opinion that modern warfare makes Just War an impossibility and that it is now time for the doctrine to be dropped. Personally I think they are very wrong in this....today's world is has far higher levels of education and availability of information than at any time since at least the time of St Augustine. The misuse of the doctrine is thus less possible. A Church without this doctrine may become purer and less hypocritical but it will also become less relevant.

Vatican Conference on Non-Violence Rejects “Just War” Theory |Blogs | NCRegister.com
 


former wesleyan

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Just as a aside, the Commandment in its original language , presumably some form of Hebrew or Aramaic, was - is - you shall not MURDER.
 

silverharp

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Just as a aside, the Commandment in its original language , presumably some form of Hebrew or Aramaic, was - is - you shall not MURDER.
you could translate roughly as don't do illegal killing , so the commandment itself was tipping its hat to pre-existing law. Its a redundant commandment
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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Just as a aside, the Commandment in its original language , presumably some form of Hebrew or Aramaic, was - is - you shall not MURDER.
I think in its most original form a better translation of the phrase is Do not annihilate, or at least that's one interpretation.
 

Half Nelson

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The Catholic doctrine of Just War dates back to St Augustine in the 5th C AD. It attempts to accommodate the Comandment Thou Shalt Not Kill with the realities of a violent world and to justify those with responsibility and duty to deal with that violent world.

Cardinal Peter Turkson, widely seen as a leading candidate for future Pope, is leading a push for this doctrine to be abandoned and for the Church to formally embrace pacifism. A Vatican conference held by Pax Christi and Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace(headed by Cardinal Turkson)released a statement calling upon Pope Francis to write an encyclical on peace and non-violence, and calls on Catholic institutions to no longer use or teach Just War theory.



Seemingly many of the conference attendees expressed the opinion that modern warfare makes Just War an impossibility and that it is now time for the doctrine to be dropped. Personally I think they are very wrong in this....today's world is has far higher levels of education and availability of information than at any time since at least the time of St Augustine. The misuse of the doctrine is thus less possible. A Church without this doctrine may become purer and less hypocritical but it will also become less relevant.

Vatican Conference on Non-Violence Rejects “Just War” Theory |Blogs | NCRegister.com
Is anybody claiming that a 'Just War' is being waged today?
 
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The Catholic doctrine of Just War dates back to St Augustine in the 5th C AD. It attempts to accommodate the Comandment Thou Shalt Not Kill with the realities of a violent world and to justify those with responsibility and duty to deal with that violent world.

Cardinal Peter Turkson, widely seen as a leading candidate for future Pope, is leading a push for this doctrine to be abandoned and for the Church to formally embrace pacifism. A Vatican conference held by Pax Christi and Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace(headed by Cardinal Turkson)released a statement calling upon Pope Francis to write an encyclical on peace and non-violence, and calls on Catholic institutions to no longer use or teach Just War theory.



Seemingly many of the conference attendees expressed the opinion that modern warfare makes Just War an impossibility and that it is now time for the doctrine to be dropped. Personally I think they are very wrong in this....today's world is has far higher levels of education and availability of information than at any time since at least the time of St Augustine. The misuse of the doctrine is thus less possible. A Church without this doctrine may become purer and less hypocritical but it will also become less relevant.

Vatican Conference on Non-Violence Rejects “Just War” Theory |Blogs | NCRegister.com
WMD, anyone? Hussein to blame for 9/11?

The connected nature of today's technology gives leaders greater scope to propagandise and to mislead. There's more information flying around and it is easier to get acces to it, but that does not equate with being better informed.

Every war is a just war in the eyes of the aggressor and they will always find means to justify it.
 

derryman

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I believe that any theology teaching of the acceptance of a "just War" , flies totally in the face of the message of Jesus. I hope it is removed post haste and apology offered for ever having had it there.
 

former wesleyan

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I think in its most original form a better translation of the phrase is Do not annihilate, or at least that's one interpretation.
It seems to be, in fact, a distinction between simple murder and the need for killing in, for, example self defence which would be in most peoples minds a just cause.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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WMD, anyone? Hussein to blame for 9/11?

The connected nature of today's technology gives leaders greater scope to propagandise and to mislead. There's more information flying around and it is easier to get acces to it, but that does not equate with being better informed.

Every war is a just war in the eyes of the aggressor and they will always find means to justify it.
In prior times the ability of a ruler to set the agenda and to limit or even eliminate any counter opinions was far greater.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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I believe that any theology teaching of the acceptance of a "just War" , flies totally in the face of the message of Jesus. I hope it is removed post haste and apology offered for ever having had it there.
Jesus was not a pacifist. He seems to have used at least some degree of physical force against the traders in the temple.
 

Half Nelson

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WMD, anyone? Hussein to blame for 9/11?

The connected nature of today's technology gives leaders greater scope to propagandise and to mislead. There's more information flying around and it is easier to get acces to it, but that does not equate with being better informed.

Every war is a just war in the eyes of the aggressor and they will always find means to justify it.
This thread is about Catholic social teaching. Has the 'Just War' teaching been invoked in any current conflict?
I don't believe it has, which makes me wonder why it is now being raised by Pax Christi?
Are they now saying that the fight against Nazism was immoral?

Pax Christi needs to come up with a better response to aggression - one that doesn't involve lying down in front of tanks.
 
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In prior times the ability of a ruler to set the agenda and to limit or even eliminate any counter opinions was far greater.
No. The means were different.

As communication methods evolve, two different enterprises evolve to exploit them particularly well: politics and pornography.

How else do you think that Bush convinced a majority of Americans that Hussein was behind 9/11?
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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This thread is about Catholic social teaching. Has the 'Just War' teaching been invoked in any current conflict?
I don't believe it has, which makes me wonder why it is now being raised by Pax Christi?
Are they now saying that the fight against Nazism was immoral?

Pax Christi needs to come up with a better response to aggression - one that doesn't involve lying down in front of tanks.
I believe it's a great shame that the Vatican didn't declare war against Germany in WW2.
 

edifice.

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The Catholic doctrine of Just War dates back to St Augustine in the 5th C AD. It attempts to accommodate the Comandment Thou Shalt Not Kill with the realities of a violent world and to justify those with responsibility and duty to deal with that violent world.

Cardinal Peter Turkson, widely seen as a leading candidate for future Pope, is leading a push for this doctrine to be abandoned and for the Church to formally embrace pacifism. A Vatican conference held by Pax Christi and Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace(headed by Cardinal Turkson)released a statement calling upon Pope Francis to write an encyclical on peace and non-violence, and calls on Catholic institutions to no longer use or teach Just War theory.



Seemingly many of the conference attendees expressed the opinion that modern warfare makes Just War an impossibility and that it is now time for the doctrine to be dropped. Personally I think they are very wrong in this....today's world is has far higher levels of education and availability of information than at any time since at least the time of St Augustine. The misuse of the doctrine is thus less possible. A Church without this doctrine may become purer and less hypocritical but it will also become less relevant.

Vatican Conference on Non-Violence Rejects “Just War” Theory |Blogs | NCRegister.com
Pacifism can be seen as fence sitting and such a policy dovetails well with the Catholic Church's natural empathy with the establishment.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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No. The means were different.

As communication methods evolve, two different enterprises evolve to exploit them particularly well: politics and pornography.

How else do you think that Bush convinced a majority of Americans that Hussein was behind 9/11?
There was a plethora of opposing voices to the 2nd gulf war from the beginning. I don't think even those who advocated it would have seriously claimed that it qualified under the criteria of Just War.

I never realised that George W was a catholic. :cool:
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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I believe that any theology teaching of the acceptance of a "just War" , flies totally in the face of the message of Jesus. I hope it is removed post haste and apology offered for ever having had it there.
How would Jesus solve a problem like Adolf?
 

Half Nelson

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I believe it's a great shame that the Vatican didn't declare war against Germany in WW2.
What good would that have done except lead to hundreds of thousands of more deaths as more Catholics joined Jews in the concentration camps? Stalin asked 'how many divisions does the Pope have?'. The answer is none.
 
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There was a plethora of opposing voices to the 2nd gulf war from the beginning. I don't think even those who advocated it would have seriously claimed that it qualified under the criteria of Just War.

I never realised that George W was a catholic. :cool:
He was certainly a Christian, and if you think that Just War doesn't come into it, reflect on the fact that he and Blair (a Catholic) both turned to God during their deliberations.

There's another element you ignore regarding access to information online. That is that while in more open countries, the authorities will seek at least to lead the narrative on certain issues, setting up astroturf groups etc, in less benign countries the leaders will seek to directly control what information is available to their citizens by using the technical controls available to them.

Additionally, while there might be greater access to information for the ordinary pleb, there is also greater access to information about that same ordinary pleb. The leaders come out ahead on the Information Highway.
 

Half Nelson

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How would Jesus solve a problem like Adolf?
Well, He did give us a heads up -
" if people do not cease offending God, a worse one (war) will break out during the Pontificate of Pope Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes"
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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What good would that have done except lead to hundreds of thousands of more deaths as more Catholics joined Jews in the concentration camps? Stalin asked 'how many divisions does the Pope have?'. The answer is none.
You are missing the point as did Stalin. The Pope could call upon the multitude of the heavenly host. The Pope had a global moral authority that Stalin did not. An 'at war' Vatican would have fundamentally strengthened the allies and weakened the axis. Yes many Catholics would have been persecuted but the war would have been shortened and many lives saved.
 


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