Criticism of Islam (Second Thread)

Golah veNekhar

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Yes it is huge.
There are over 2bn Christians in the world. Most that live in the west.
They do not mostly live in the West.

Most Westerners who call themselves Christian believe in very little Christianity- for instance how many of them do you think believe in Original Sin or the necesscity of Christ's Sacrafice on the Cross? What about sexual ethics? Or the Triune Nature of God?
 


Supra

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They do not mostly live in the West.

Most Westerners who call themselves Christian believe in very little Christianity- for instance how many of them do you think believe in Original Sin or the necesscity of Christ's Sacrafice on the Cross? What about sexual ethics? Or the Triune Nature of God?
Followers of Jesus are Christians. There is no other criteria needed.
Going to confession or celibacy are optional parts.
The nature of God is different, God applies to pretty much all religions.
 

Golah veNekhar

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Followers of Jesus are Christians. There is no other criteria needed.
Going to confession or celibacy are optional parts.
The nature of God is different, God applies to pretty much all religions.
Not even Baptism?

Matthew 18:17- "And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican." Publicans by the way were people who worked as tax farmers for the Romans and thus were deeply despised and considered the lowest of the low.

Okay- how many of these "followers of Jesus" in the West believe it would be just for a State to put to death people for engaging in homosexual activity or promoting it? That is what the New Testament teaches. How many of these "followers of Jesus" that virginity is ontologically superior to marriage? Again what the New Testament teaches.
 

Golah veNekhar

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The nature of God is different, God applies to pretty much all religions.
Islam and Christianity and maybe parts of Rabbinic Judaism share a very similar understanding of God. However Buddhism does not believe in God as such and the various Hindu understanding can only be considered deeply warped if not downright Satanic by either a Believing Christian or Believing Muslim.
 

Supra

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Not even Baptism?

Matthew 18:17- "And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican." Publicans by the way were people who worked as tax farmers for the Romans and thus were deeply despised and considered the lowest of the low.

Okay- how many of these "followers of Jesus" in the West believe it would be just for a State to put to death people for engaging in homosexual activity or promoting it? That is what the New Testament teaches. How many of these "followers of Jesus" that virginity is ontologically superior to marriage? Again what the New Testament teaches.
None, and I'd say Jesus wouldn't agree either.
Christians are followers of Jesus not Mathew. In fact, as the bible was written after Jesus had died, everything in the bible is optional as it has many counter commands with many different contributors, none of which were Jesus.
 

Supra

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Islam and Christianity and maybe parts of Rabbinic Judaism share a very similar understanding of God. However Buddhism does not believe in God as such and the various Hindu understanding can only be considered deeply warped if not downright Satanic by either a Believing Christian or Believing Muslim.
I just think they are mistaking.
 

Golah veNekhar

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None, and I'd say Jesus wouldn't agree either.
Christians are followers of Jesus not Mathew. In fact, as the bible was written after Jesus had died, everything in the bible is optional as it has many counter commands with many different contributors, none of which were Jesus.
Okay so you decide yourself what Jesus did or did not believe.....Sounds like you are a follower of your own imagination as opposed to the Second Person of the Uncreated Trinity.

Also the notion that Our Lord Jesus during His time on earth did not believe in execution for homosexual acts is insane- He was according to his Humanity a Secoind Temple Jew, He tightened sexual ethics not liberalized them which He could have done had He so chosen.

A Believing Muslim for all their errors and downright faults is FAR more closer to Christianity and to God than your average indigenous Westerner "follower of Jesus" who in actual fact follow their imaginations and their lusts.
 

Barroso

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They do not mostly live in the West.

Most Westerners who call themselves Christian believe in very little Christianity- for instance how many of them do you think believe in Original Sin or the necesscity of Christ's Sacrafice on the Cross? What about sexual ethics? Or the Triune Nature of God?
Most Xtians don't give a damn about the theology. They are at best cultural Xtians - baptism, wedding and death. And religious weddings are becoming rarer by the day.

Don't imagine that muslims are any different, although they may be further behind us on the curve.
 

Golah veNekhar

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Most Xtians don't give a damn about the theology. They are at best cultural Xtians - baptism, wedding and death. And religious weddings are becoming rarer by the day.

Don't imagine that muslims are any different, although they may be further behind us on the curve.
I am well aware that most people who call themselves Christians and are indigenous Western Europeans are nothing of the sort- however the further East you go in Europe this starts to change, and in Eastern European the numbers of sincere Believing Christians is growing and not decreasing.

Really now? All the indicators are that Muslims are more zealous as regards their Faith and more strict in it's practice than they were say a generation ago. All the indicators are that they are on a whole different curve to us. I suspect that you are indulging in a crude form of Hegelianism.

The indigenous in the ROI voted for abortion on demand while we are in the middle of a demographics crisis. That is where secularization has got us. No wonder the Islamic world is legging it in the other direction.
 

Barroso

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I am well aware that most people who call themselves Christians and are indigenous Western Europeans are nothing of the sort- however the further East you go in Europe this starts to change, and in Eastern European the numbers of sincere Believing Christians is growing and not decreasing.

Really now? All the indicators are that Muslims are more zealous as regards their Faith and more strict in it's practice than they were say a generation ago. All the indicators are that they are on a whole different curve to us. I suspect that you are indulging in a crude form of Hegelianism.

The indigenous in the ROI voted for abortion on demand while we are in the middle of a demographics crisis. That is where secularization has got us. No wonder the Islamic world is legging it in the other direction.
I'd see the Islamic world as being somewhere like we were in the 1950s - an apparently all-pervasive church ruling the country in the wake of independence. And then the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s and on until today, the Church's influence waned decade by decade.
The apparent power of the Mullahs in muslim countries is that - a superstructure which is being eaten away by a population with ever greater choices available to them. Women with an income of their own, leading to making decisions about how to live their lives. Women with access to birth control giving them the ability to decide how many children they will have.
Men ditto, but to a lesser extent. It can be more difficult for the men to make the leap, as they see the one certainty in their upbringing - marriage to a woman who is effectively their servant - gradually fade away.
And don't kid yourself that this is not happening in muslim society, it is even if more slowly than it happened here.
 

Golah veNekhar

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I'd see the Islamic world as being somewhere like we were in the 1950s - an apparently all-pervasive church ruling the country in the wake of independence. And then the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s and on until today, the Church's influence waned decade by decade.
The apparent power of the Mullahs in muslim countries is that - a superstructure which is being eaten away by a population with ever greater choices available to them. Women with an income of their own, leading to making decisions about how to live their lives. Women with access to birth control giving them the ability to decide how many children they will have.
Men ditto, but to a lesser extent. It can be more difficult for the men to make the leap, as they see the one certainty in their upbringing - marriage to a woman who is effectively their servant - gradually fade away.
And don't kid yourself that this is not happening in muslim society, it is even if more slowly than it happened here.
Clerical authority which was always weak has taken massive hits in in the Islamic world- as part of what has been called the Islamic Revival. You are presuming that your thought processes and out looks are the only ones possible. Actually if you study properly the rest of the world you will see other people process things very differently, have very different historical processes acting upon them, etc, etc, etc.

Your ideal is not some historical inevitability necessarily at all.
 

Barroso

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Clerical authority which was always weak has taken massive hits in in the Islamic world- as part of what has been called the Islamic Revival. You are presuming that your thought processes and out looks are the only ones possible. Actually if you study properly the rest of the world you will see other people process things very differently, have very different historical processes acting upon them, etc, etc, etc.

Your ideal is not some historical inevitability necessarily at all.
You might be right - but we will need at least a few decades to find out.

Let's come back to this thread in 2050 and see where history has taken us.
 

recedite

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I'd see the Islamic world as being somewhere like we were in the 1950s - an apparently all-pervasive church ruling the country in the wake of independence. And then the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s and on until today, the Church's influence waned decade by decade.
 

Barroso

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There was a small westernised elite who ran Iran at the time. The elite was overthrown, emigrated, and replaced by the Mullahs, we all know that.

If you go back to 1910, you will find that there was a small wealthy elite in Ireland who ran away after independence, theit offspring would have been the equivalent of the young Irani people in your picture.

Not really so different at all.

Or maybe your argument is the more skin young women show the better the society?
If so, it's a pretty shallow argument.
 

recedite

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I'm saying if you take the Islam out of the Islamic world, you are left with something a lot closer to western society.
However its a mistake to think that Islam is on the way out.
 

recedite

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Women with an income of their own, leading to making decisions about how to live their lives. Women with access to birth control giving them the ability to decide how many children they will have.
I was on the Luas (green line) recently, half the people in the carriage were women in either headscarves of full Burqas, with small kids running everywhere. Apparently most of them can't or won't drive a car. The only law oppressing them is Sharia Law, and its in their own heads.
The first time a saw Burqa was only a few years ago, now they are all over the place. Ireland has become infected with Islam. Islam is not dying out, it is spreading.
 

Golah veNekhar

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You might be right - but we will need at least a few decades to find out.

Let's come back to this thread in 2050 and see where history has taken us.
You are repeating what was the academic consensus in the West in the 1960s and 1970s, which ignored a lot of what was happening on the ground and has now been abandoned. This is because you can only imagine history moving in one direction. Also you are failing to see the fruits of secularization among indigenous Westerners- for instance the fact that we as a group are not reproducing.

Something very interesting about the grooming scandals in England. For a long time the Pakistanis were better integrated into the wider society than the Blacks, it is the opposite today. The indigenous working class in Britain nose dived into degeneracy in the 1990s for a variety of reasons which saw the coming apart of the working class family, wide spread drug abuse, adults playing computer games, etc, etc. People in Ireland in the same of "Progress"- particularly in the South- seem hell bound, pardon the pun, on going down the same route. This meant that the Pakistani Sunni Supremacists who had their minds poisoned by a savagae Saudi version of Islam (the UK is allied to Saudi Arabia so the Saudis get a free hand to spread their warped version of Islam in England) found indigenous English working girls extremely easy pickings. The question of why they found them such easy pickings has been asked in fairness by Nationalists such as Nick Griffin but they are not exactly mainstream- it has not been asked by either the "Counter-Jihadist" Tommytards or the mainstream media.
 

Barroso

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I was on the Luas (green line) recently, half the people in the carriage were women in either headscarves of full Burqas, with small kids running everywhere. Apparently most of them can't or won't drive a car. The only law oppressing them is Sharia Law, and its in their own heads.
The first time a saw Burqa was only a few years ago, now they are all over the place. Ireland has become infected with Islam. Islam is not dying out, it is spreading.
Many immigrants don't have cars, not just muslims.

To get an idea of what islam is like one or two generations on, look at France, Germany, the Netherlands - the second and third generations are indistinguishable from the autochtonous population in the same social stratum.
Of course there is the occasional exception - but then there are Le Pens, Brexiteers, AfD, Geert Wilders too. Who want to hinder integration.

Or look at the Irish catholic offspring in England - just how catholic do you think they are today?
 

Supra

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Okay so you decide yourself what Jesus did or did not believe.....Sounds like you are a follower of your own imagination as opposed to the Second Person of the Uncreated Trinity.

Also the notion that Our Lord Jesus during His time on earth did not believe in execution for homosexual acts is insane- He was according to his Humanity a Secoind Temple Jew, He tightened sexual ethics not liberalized them which He could have done had He so chosen.

A Believing Muslim for all their errors and downright faults is FAR more closer to Christianity and to God than your average indigenous Westerner "follower of Jesus" who in actual fact follow their imaginations and their lusts.
1. Yes. Though it does take some consideration, there are things preached about Jesus I believe and other things i don't believe.

2. See 1.

3. No. If a Muslim is a follower of Mohammad above Jesus then they are not closer. It may be that they are not far from each other. That would depend on everything other than the thing that makes them different.
 

recedite

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Or look at the Irish catholic offspring in England - just how catholic do you think they are today?
They integrate very quickly. Tommy Robinson for example, who is half Irish.
But for those who follow Islam its a very different story. They have no intention of integrating into a society whose values they reject. Its more of a slow but steady colonisation.
 


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