Croke Park Agreement prevents €3 billion in budget cuts without tax increases?

patslatt

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The Croke Park Agreement on public sector pay has spared us the whingeing and victimhood claims of public sector union reps on the airwaves but that will come at a high price in the coming budget-big tax increases and a total gutting of capital spending on infrastructure.

Recognising belatedly that the frenzy of tax increases in his budgets have crippled the economy, Finance Minister Lenihan promised no more tax increases. But how can he possibly find €3 billion plus in cuts?

Can he increase pension funding levies on gold plated public sector pensions to levels determined by pension actuaries? That would go a long way towards balancing the budget but take home pay would take a beating if the employees had to contribute fully.

I hope Lenihan isn't swayed by taxers like Garret Fitzgerald who claim that Irish taxes are relatively low by the standards of EU advanced welfare states. They fail to recognise that inferior Irish government services in health care,public transport,social housing and subsidised day care aren't worth paying for. Higher taxes should only be considered if the public sector is radically reformed over a decade and its recruitment system opened up to business talents in order to permit efficient delivery of services.
 
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jimmyfour

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If you want 3 billion saved then don't give 8 billion to Anglo. Cuts are meaningless anyway as the 3 billion would only cover the increased interest of the bank bailouts which is all being borrowed. They will need to make another "3 billion in cuts", i.e., pay off more interest on money borrowed to support Seanie next year, and the year after and the year after.

Eventually, 99% income tax, net income of €4 a year and it still won't be enough. This income curve is dropping and there is a floor on it. Perhaps Lenihan has been doing it to get people ready for IMF cuts he knows are coming - and would be a bigger single drop than gradual cuts over 2-3 years.
 

OCicero

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We need to cut the billions being handed over to banks, not the take home pay for the families of nurses, guards, social welfare recipients, etc. that is spent in shops. If you don't believe this, look at the recent Financial Times, which was widely quoted by this Goverment in 2009 - when it suited.
 

Luigi Vampa

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The Croke Park Agreement on public sector pay has spared us the whingeing and victimhood claims of public sector union reps on the airwaves but that will come at a high price in the coming budget-big tax increases and a total gutting of capital spending on infrastructure.

Recognising belatedly that the frenzy of tax increases in his budgets have crippled the economy, Finance Minister Lenihan promised no more tax increases. But how can he possibly find €3 billion plus in cuts?

Can he increase pension funding levies on gold plated public sector pensions to levels determined by pension actuaries? That would go a long way towards balancing the budget but take home pay would take a beating if the employees had to contribute fully.
You clowns are so see through and predictable it is unreal.

What do you do for a "living" Pat ? FF journalist, FF developer, FF autioneer, FF solicitor, FF contractor or FF developer ???

Easy knowing it's getting close to FF budget time, when the lower mount street rent a drones are out trying to demonise and vilify public sector workers in an attempt to distract attention from the real crooks.

The pay and pension cuts save us 870 million per year. So how would taking another 870 million off them, i.e. doubling their present cuts, pay for the 30 Billion being given to bail out the wealthy golden circle and their Anglo bank debts ?
 
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thebig C

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Well, if Labour are the largest party not only will the Croke Park cop-out not save €3 Billion, but, there is a chance it will be reversed.

Mark my words! Gilmore can't commit to anything, and if Labour receive a huge vote he will attribute it solely to not rocking the electoral boat with cuts. Consequently, having just delivered many new Labour seats he won't want to risk losing them!!

Added to which Jack O'Connor will probably have a desk in the corner of the Taoiseachs office!

C
 

LeDroit

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Well, if Labour are the largest party not only will the Croke Park cop-out not save €3 Billion, but, there is a chance it will be reversed.

Mark my words! Gilmore can't commit to anything, and if Labour receive a huge vote he will attribute it solely to not rocking the electoral boat with cuts. Consequently, having just delivered many new Labour seats he won't want to risk losing them!!

Added to which Jack O'Connor will probably have a desk in the corner of the Taoiseachs office!

C
The Labour Party voted at their most recent conference to reverse the pay cuts and recruitment embargo when in govt. I wonder how they'd pay for that now? Oh yeah, a 65% income tax rate on the 'rich', ie anyone earning more than 75k.
 

thebig C

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The Labour Party voted at their most recent conference to reverse the pay cuts and recruitment embargo when in govt. I wonder how they'd pay for that now? Oh yeah, a 65% income tax rate on the 'rich', ie anyone earning more than 75k.
I wonder what will happen when they realise that most people paying the top rate will be Civil Servants and Semi State based middle/upper managers.......who account for alot of Labours vote!
 

maxthedog

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I wonder what will happen when they realise that most people paying the top rate will be Civil Servants and Semi State based middle/upper managers.......who account for alot of Labours vote!
A high tax rate, will not affect the pension, and as many of the top rate civil servants are older, they just want to reach the end-line and get out with their 65% of 100K plus.
 

jacko

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Ed Balls may not have the charisma the win the british labour party leadership today but he knows his economics and this approach may well be the way forward for us

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqER8CPtCiI&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Ed Balls Bloomberg speech - There is an alternative[/ame]
 

Odyessus

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Everyone agrees that we had a property and credit bubble. Everyone agrees that the increases in welfare and public service pay was based on credit bubble revenues.

Can someone explain to me how we can continue to pay these rates now that tax revenues have collapsed along with the bubble?

It seems to me the Labour party want to condemn the credit bubble, while refusing to cut the benefits and salaries it made possible.
 

OCicero

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Can someone explain to me how we can continue to pay these rates now that tax revenues have collapsed along with the bubble?
I would prefer to spend my tax money on social welfare that goes back into local shops, than London bondholders whose income isn't keeping Margie and Ann at their checkout jobs. When we have gone past the bondholder insanity, then it's time to move onto discussions about revenue-raising mechanisms and their cyclical robustness.

When you have a gambler in the house, the first thing to do is get them to stop gambling. THEN you start thinking about helping them find work.
 

Odyessus

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I would prefer to spend my tax money on social welfare that goes back into local shops, than London bondholders whose income isn't keeping Margie and Ann at their checkout jobs. When we have gone past the bondholder insanity, then it's time to move onto discussions about revenue-raising mechanisms and their cyclical robustness.

When you have a gambler in the house, the first thing to do is get them to stop gambling. THEN you start thinking about helping them find work.

You don't get it, do you? Our taxes only amount to €30bn per annum. How can we continue to pay out €50bn per annum?

This has nothing to do with banks, bondholders, or NAMA.
 

riker1969

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The Croke Park Agreement on public sector pay has spared us the whingeing and victimhood claims of public sector union reps on the airwaves but that will come at a high price in the coming budget-big tax increases and a total gutting of capital spending on infrastructure.

Recognising belatedly that the frenzy of tax increases in his budgets have crippled the economy, Finance Minister Lenihan promised no more tax increases. But how can he possibly find €3 billion plus in cuts?

Can he increase pension funding levies on gold plated public sector pensions to levels determined by pension actuaries? That would go a long way towards balancing the budget but take home pay would take a beating if the employees had to contribute fully.
Pat or twat why dont you read Garret F in today's Irish Times? We are an undertaxed nation by about 4 billion. While I dont think the Government will be able to honour the agreement-only a mathematical moron like yourself would think we can avoid further tax increases sometime. Even after the income levy we still pay below EU avg-you know what an average is Pat??
. Im sure the usual rent a gang are here agreeing with you but you wont be able to get any balanced individual to agree with your nonsense. Oh by the way Pat-hope you enjoy the drop in income!!
 

RainyDay

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Everyone agrees that we had a property and credit bubble. Everyone agrees that the increases in welfare and public service pay was based on credit bubble revenues.

Can someone explain to me how we can continue to pay these rates now that tax revenues have collapsed along with the bubble?
We're not continuing to pay those rates. We've already had across the board cuts.
 

rasher

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We're not continuing to pay those rates. We've already had across the board cuts.
The cuts we have had to date are nowhere near the level of the increases we saw in government spending during the boom years.
 

patslatt

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Government borrowing tolerable

If you want 3 billion saved then don't give 8 billion to Anglo. Cuts are meaningless anyway as the 3 billion would only cover the increased interest of the bank bailouts which is all being borrowed. They will need to make another "3 billion in cuts", i.e., pay off more interest on money borrowed to support Seanie next year, and the year after and the year after.

Eventually, 99% income tax, net income of €4 a year and it still won't be enough. This income curve is dropping and there is a floor on it. Perhaps Lenihan has been doing it to get people ready for IMF cuts he knows are coming - and would be a bigger single drop than gradual cuts over 2-3 years.
Government borrowing is tolerable. Say interest rates average 4% on both short and long term debt,with debt at 100% of GDP or 125% of GNP,then interest payments are 4% of GDP and 5% of GNP.
 

RainyDay

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The cuts we have had to date are nowhere near the level of the increases we saw in government spending during the boom years.
The level of increases that we've seen in Govt spending had little to do with salary increases. We were finally starting to catch up on years of below-average spending on infrastructure and on health services.

But that's all gone out the window now too - thanks to Mr Cowen.
 

OCicero

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This has nothing to do with banks, bondholders, or NAMA.
ROFL. You're right. We can afford a E25B+ payout. A momentary lapse.

Now, how much Social Welfare do you want to cut?

Oh hang on, I have lost it again. Why are we choosing to give money to London fund managers over local consumers again?

You're right, I still don't get it.

Thank God.
 

patslatt

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Enough blame all round

You clowns are so see through and predictable it is unreal.

What do you do for a "living" Pat ? FF journalist, FF developer, FF autioneer, FF solicitor, FF contractor or FF developer ???

Easy knowing it's getting close to FF budget time, when the lower mount street rent a drones are out trying to demonise and vilify public sector workers in an attempt to distract attention from the real crooks.

The pay and pension cuts save us 870 million per year. So how would taking another 870 million off them, i.e. doubling their present cuts, pay for the 30 Billion being given to bail out the wealthy golden circle and their Anglo bank debts ?
There's enough blame all round,including the electorate who weren't exactly passive participants in auction politics and property gambling. A fool and his money are soon parted.
 


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