Croke Park Deal about to be junked?

adamirer

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The closing dates for implementation details on the CPD is Wednesday. Submission are to be made from the satellite depts/organisations back to the centre (DoF & Taoiseach).

As I understand it, Gov didnt approach the unions with any firm plans for what they wanted. So not much was agreed centrally. Instead, the Gov did a trawl of the depts and satellites to look for ideas. The deadline is tomorrow, but rumour is not much is forthcoming from the wings. The depts (etc) are basically waiting for central guidence so as not to be seen as over egging the situation.

Is this death by osmosis? Is the lack of leadership the Gov is showing in this area a sign that they feel they've killed off any lingering union resentment over the last 2 years a) tax rises & levys b) pension levy c) pays cuts and are getting ready to drop the deal due to clause 28 "unforeseen circumstances" - when in reality, everyone foresaw the mess they were making of things.
 
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bobbysands81

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The closing dates for implementation details on the CPD is Wednesday. Submission are to be made from the satellite depts/organisations back to the centre (DoF & Taoiseach).

As I understand it, Gov didnt apprahc the unions with any firm plans for what they wanted. So not much was agreed centrally. Instead, the Gov did a trawl of the depts and satellites to look for ideas. The deadline is tomorrow, but rumour is not much is forthcoming from the wings.

Is this death by osmosis? Is the lack of leadership the Gov is showing in this area a sign that they feel they've killed off any lingering union resentment over the last 2 years a) tax rises & levys b) pension levy c) pays cuts and are getting ready to drop the deal due to clause 28 "unforeseen circumstances" - when in reality, everyone foresaw the mess they were making of things.
You could easily be right, there seems a real lack of engagement from the Govt side with Unions who are ready and wanting for the deal to go through. I laugh on here the way that folks think that Civil Service Unions have power - we have none!!! We are the ones pushing for the implementation of this deal, the Govt are the ones dragging their heels.

I still don't think the Govt will back out... I really don't... as I feel that the they will make unbelievable savings from being able to move surplus public sector staff from one Department/Local Authority/Agency to another.

If this deal falls then I doubt the Government will last too long.
 

Skyrocket

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Maybe Eamon Gilmore might have something to say about this (or maybe not!).
 

grafter1

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It doesn't matter where any of us fall in relation to this argument the deal is dead. To keep their part of the deal the Irish state needs funds which it is now clear will no longer come from international markets.

While i totally disagreed with the deal in the first place i take no joy or otherwise from its imminent collapse.

Fellow Irish people including many members of my extended family will be greatly affected.

Bertie and the unions take a bow.
 

DCon

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I think FF created the whole deal to give themselves time. They had no intention of implementing the deal and hence the problems quoted above.

The time was designed to wait for an economic improvement (FF hoped and prayed) or stage a government collapse.
 

Kevin Doyle

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It doesn't matter where any of us fall in relation to this argument the deal is dead. To keep their part of the deal the Irish state needs funds which it is now clear will no longer come from international markets.

While i totally disagreed with the deal in the first place i take no joy or otherwise from its imminent collapse.

Fellow Irish people including many members of my extended family will be greatly affected.

Bertie and the unions take a bow.
add to that the double whammy of increased taxation and kissing or CT rate goodbye.
 

Expatriot

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Why do people in leadership in the country expect the things there are managing to spontaneously reorder themselves? Unless the direct something it will not happen. They are either grossly unless at their job or intend the reform to fail. Either is a disgrace.

I am delighted I voted against this deal, when is fails I never want to hear another word about partnership or deals. Run the country and keep the rest of us out of your incompetence.
 

Dohville

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The closing dates for implementation details on the CPD is Wednesday. Submission are to be made from the satellite depts/organisations back to the centre (DoF & Taoiseach).

As I understand it, Gov didnt approach the unions with any firm plans for what they wanted. So not much was agreed centrally. Instead, the Gov did a trawl of the depts and satellites to look for ideas. The deadline is tomorrow, but rumour is not much is forthcoming from the wings. The depts (etc) are basically waiting for central guidence so as not to be seen as over egging the situation.

Is this death by osmosis? Is the lack of leadership the Gov is showing in this area a sign that they feel they've killed off any lingering union resentment over the last 2 years a) tax rises & levys b) pension levy c) pays cuts and are getting ready to drop the deal due to clause 28 "unforeseen circumstances" - when in reality, everyone foresaw the mess they were making of things.
Not what I am hearing.
 

grafter1

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add to that the double whammy of increased taxation and kissing or CT rate goodbye.
Correct. Our CT rate can take a hike as far as i'm concerned. I dont care if it costs some jobs its not fair to ask Mr Irishman to pay 60c on his last euro earned while asking Mr. Foreign Corporation to pay 12.5c.

The low corporate tax rate was a master stroke in the 1990s when we where basically a glorified third world country. We successfully attracted FDI but inevitably you become uncompetitive.

To sustain our prosperity we needed to move to a reliance on home grown entrepreneurs and businesses.

People talk about leadership and the one word that i look for in a 'leader' is vision.

We have no vision in this country.

I told a politician in 2002 that we should raise Corp Tax to 20% and use the additional revenue to promote home grown businesses and entrepreneurs. I tried to explain to him that you can't rely on FDI forever and no country has managed to sustain prosperity relying on it.

Anyway we are where we are where we are where we are
 

irishfeller

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I don't understand why the government is so slow to start the reforms and staff reallocation which has been agreed in the croke park deal. Surely these reforms could quickly give savings which would help in finding the 3 billion reduction in expenditure in the budget.

Why wasn't the government sending people in the day after the deal was done to start the process? We desperately need the savings and the reform.
 

Dohville

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The problem with FDI is the profits are not spent within the Irish economy, where it is needed.
 

Expatriot

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I don't understand why the government is so slow to start the reforms and staff reallocation which has been agreed in the croke park deal. Surely these reforms could quickly give savings which would help in finding the 3 billion reduction in expenditure in the budget.

Why wasn't the government sending people in the day after the deal was done to start the process?
We desperately need the savings and the reform.
That is a very good question. There was no need for a lag time. The reforms are well flagged for years. The truth is they dont have the balls and realise that there is not that much to save in euro terms for the political cost of doing it. They are afraid to do anything other than blame someone else. Its not a problem as long as someone else can be blamed. In this case the unions.

Well the unions dont manage the PS, the government does. So we know who to blame when no reform is even attempted.
 

Pharaoh

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I don't understand why the government is so slow to start the reforms and staff reallocation which has been agreed in the croke park deal. Surely these reforms could quickly give savings which would help in finding the 3 billion reduction in expenditure in the budget.

Why wasn't the government sending people in the day after the deal was done to start the process? We desperately need the savings and the reform.
I'm wondering how exactly staff reallocation is going to save any money. Moving people around might result in a better service but if no jobs are shed and pay rates remain unchanged where is the saving? I suppose there could be some elimination of overtime but it seems that this has already been cut to the bone.

What exactly has Dara Calleary done since his appointment, where is his plan? Has anyone questioned him on this?
Having said all that I have a relative who works for the HSE and she tells me management have approached them about changing roster system, staff meeting schedules but IMPACT have instructed them to flat out refuse to change anything. Unbelievably they have recently been awarded extra pay in the form of what she called a "twilight" allowance, something they have been campaigning for for some time.
 

olamp

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The closing dates for implementation details on the CPD is Wednesday. Submission are to be made from the satellite depts/organisations back to the centre (DoF & Taoiseach).

As I understand it, Gov didnt approach the unions with any firm plans for what they wanted. So not much was agreed centrally. Instead, the Gov did a trawl of the depts and satellites to look for ideas. The deadline is tomorrow, but rumour is not much is forthcoming from the wings. The depts (etc) are basically waiting for central guidence so as not to be seen as over egging the situation.

Is this death by osmosis? Is the lack of leadership the Gov is showing in this area a sign that they feel they've killed off any lingering union resentment over the last 2 years a) tax rises & levys b) pension levy c) pays cuts and are getting ready to drop the deal due to clause 28 "unforeseen circumstances" - when in reality, everyone foresaw the mess they were making of things.
It was a ridiculous deal in the first place and was only agreed because the bearded ones had Cowen against the wall .Things have changed radically in the past few months and there is no way that Cowen can afford to honour this deal
 

adamirer

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It was a ridiculous deal in the first place and was only agreed because the bearded ones had Cowen against the wall .Things have changed radically in the past few months and there is no way that Cowen can afford to honour this deal
I'm constantly shocked at this line of thinking. The bearded ones haven't got Cowen up against anything. They got screwed repeatedly at the negotiations table

a) The 2nd phase of T2016 - they got a yes vote on it.. only for it to be pulled, unilaterally.
b) Told about the pension levy at 3am the morning it was introduced.
c) pay cuts and failure to reverse them for the lowest paid.
d) the CPD didnt result in a reversal of cuts, which is what they wanted - instead, they cemented T2016, which basically the Gov bought, and then cancelled the cheque and went beyond with a whole new set of measures (virtually none of which are efficinecies, rather a way to make decentralisation happen) in result for no more cuts.. beyonds the taxes everyone else pays.

No one who thinks the unions have FF by the balols is in a union, because they are the most inept people around. I'd vote for Cowen and Lenihan to stay in charge over Begg and co, thats how bad they are.
 

Keith-M

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This deal was done when we thought the worst was over. Last week's GDP/GNP numbers proved that this was wrong. We cannot continue to borrow at the current rates of interest. There is limited scope to reduce taxation without leading to the general strikes and marches that we saw in the early 1980s. The answer is clear. We need further cuts in public spending. The two biggest areas of public spending are welfare and he public service. We should be looking at a 10% acrosss the board cut in welfare with caps on child benefit for people earning over the AIW.

We need to take a long hard look at the public service. There need to be large scale redundancies. Ideally they would be voluntary, but I'm not sure that that's a luxury that we can afford. We also need to make sure that the redundancy terms are not overly-generous and should be no more than the average of what people in the private sector are getting and the look at payments over a longer period, rather than one lump sum, need to be introduced. We need to get rid of this "job for life" mentality. Even Cuba doesn't have that anymore.
 
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bobbysands81

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This deal was done when we thought the worst was over. Last week's GDP/GNP numbers proved that this was wrong. We cannot continue to borrow at the current rates of interest. There is limited scope to reduce taxation without leading to the general strikes and marches that we saw in the early 1980s. The answer is clear. We need further cuts in public spending. The two biggest areas of public spending are welfare and he public service. We should be looking at a 10% acrosss the board cut in welfare with caps on child benefit for people earning over the AIW.

We need to take a long hard look at the public service. There need to be large scale redundancies. Ideally they would be voluntary, but I'm not sure that that's a luxury that we can afford. We also need to make sure that the redundancy terms are not overly-generous and should be no more than the average of what people in the private sector are getting and the look at payments over a longer period, rather than one lump sum, need to be introduced. We need to get rid of this "job for life" mentality. Even Cuba doesn't have that anymore.
Some good points Keith, surprised at you.
 

olamp

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The first round of negotiations broke down because Lenihan stepped in ,knowing that the PS workers could be promised nothing --the country was in a perilous state economically and the PS workers should have been thankful for being employed in a job from which they can`t be sacked --but no, out they go on strike ,holding the government to ransom.Cowen was backed into a corner so hence the Croke Park talks . Our economy now has gone from perilous to bankrupt so all bets are off .
 

irishfeller

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We need to get rid of this "job for life" mentality. Even Cuba doesn't have that anymore.
True. In northern ireland they are going to be making redundant 10 or 20% of the public sector workers due to cuts. I was asking someone who works in the public sector up there would there be strikes, etc because of this and they said no. Can you imagine if the government tried to do the same down here?
 


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