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Cull of senior civil servants


B

birthday

Senior civil servants have colluded in the destruction of the Irish economy. From Benchmarking, de-centralisation, ludicrously high pay rates across senior public service, absent financial regulation, defence of Ceann Comhairle expenses the hand of senior civil servants is to be seen.
It is not acceptable to simply claim that these policies were initiated by FF/PD ministers. All along the way detailed policy was formulated and implemented by senior civil servants who had the option of resigning or at the very least of putting their opposition in writing.
A whole swathe of senior civil servants need to be demoted to clerical officer grade unless they can PROVE that they have NOT colluded and indeed formulated the destruction of the Irish economy. They would still have jobs-only at clerical officer level.
 

Jock_the_Waster

Active member
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
165
Senior civil servants have colluded in the destruction of the Irish economy. From Benchmarking, de-centralisation, ludicrously high pay rates across senior public service, absent financial regulation, defence of Ceann Comhairle expenses the hand of senior civil servants is to be seen.
It is not acceptable to simply claim that these policies were initiated by FF/PD ministers. All along the way detailed policy was formulated and implemented by senior civil servants who had the option of resigning or at the very least of putting their opposition in writing.
A whole swathe of senior civil servants need to be demoted to clerical officer grade unless they can PROVE that they have NOT colluded and indeed formulated the destruction of the Irish economy. They would still have jobs-only at clerical officer level.
+1
 

Conor

Moderator
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
5,206

blucey

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
366
True Economics: Economics 12/08/2009: An afront to our democracy
So Mr Carroll's case has been now refused the examinership by the Supreme Court. Welcome news - at least there is a remnant of sanity left in this country and it is the Judiciary. But the telling reaction to the highest court in the land verdict came from the Department of Finance. In a blatant disregard of the Supreme Court powers, a mere civil servant-run lowly department (that is but a fraction of one of the three pillars of the state) has in effect told the Supreme Court (the highest body of another pillar of this state) to pack off.

In a response penned, most likely well in advance of the Supreme Court decision, the DofF stated that (quoting the Irish Times report - here): "The Department of Finance rejected any suggestion that the Government’s plans for Nama were affected by the court ruling. “It makes no difference – Nama will proceed as planned,” said a spokesman for the Minister for Finance. “We’ve always made clear that Nama will operate in line with EU Commission guidelines, which set out the use of the long-term economic value measurement.”

So Supreme Court telling the nation that, in agreement with the Commercial Court, its assessment of Mr Carroll's assets is that these assets are not worth even 15-20% of loans advanced to the company, 'makes no difference' to the NAMA. We will still pay Euro60bn for the same assets.
 

InReality

Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2009
Messages
48
Dept of Finance was always going to say that :)

FF/PD and the irish voters were the problem.

Blaming civil servants is a distraction from this.
 

adamirer

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
454
Senior civil servants have colluded in the destruction of the Irish economy. From Benchmarking, de-centralisation, ludicrously high pay rates across senior public service, absent financial regulation, defence of Ceann Comhairle expenses the hand of senior civil servants is to be seen.
It is not acceptable to simply claim that these policies were initiated by FF/PD ministers. All along the way detailed policy was formulated and implemented by senior civil servants who had the option of resigning or at the very least of putting their opposition in writing.
A whole swathe of senior civil servants need to be demoted to clerical officer grade unless they can PROVE that they have NOT colluded and indeed formulated the destruction of the Irish economy. They would still have jobs-only at clerical officer level.
OMG, I'm sorry, but that is one of the most incredibly stupid posts I have ever read on this site and I'm stunned at the names of those 'thanking' it! Are you utterly mad???

There is no 'collusion' - there is doing your duty. Page 1, line 1 of any CS guidebook
Civil Servants served at the whim of the Minister.
Civil Servants are not elected
Civil Servants do not dictate policy - the Minister is the only one empowered to do so.
Civil Servants do not contravene the wishes of the Minister unless ther eis an illegal act.

It doesnt matter if a CS thinks whats being done is incredibly stupid, wrong, misguided, a financial disaster waiting to happen (etc), we are obliged to carry out our duties. Thats why you have an elected Government - the will of the people. I personally have more than a dozen times shook my head in disbelief at the course of action in my own area/brief - but c'est la vie! You do yuor duty and the duty is to give the Minister an informed choice.

Most of the civil service recognised that Decentralisation was a collossal political clusterf... but we had to go along with it. The Sec Gen in my dept found out the night befoe the budget and strongly argued against it, but was put in his place. He didn't get to make the decision - the Government do.

Opinions are given clearly to Minsters in such matters, that you dont see them doesnt mean they don't exist. I am astonished at the lack of understanding of how it works.. I mean seriously, resign because you think decentralisation is a joke? are you for real?

Get it clear, civil servants are told - give me options on this.
They draw up some. Most get whittled away by some lacky FF cllr serving as a Ministerial Policy Advisor (now THERES a scandal) and then presented to the Minister depending on what type of political bottle he/she has and the Minister (or political advisor) chooses what to do.

I've worked under 4 Ministers now and not one of them has been closed to suggestions, but every single one of them dictated what was done and took the option best suited to them, even if it wasn't the recommended course of action.

They really need to start teaching civics properly in school...
 

DCon

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
5,901
OMG, I'm sorry, but that is one of the most incredibly stupid posts I have ever read on this site and I'm stunned at the names of those 'thanking' it! Are you utterly mad???

There is no 'collusion' - there is doing your duty. Page 1, line 1 of any CS guidebook
Civil Servants served at the whim of the Minister.
Civil Servants are not elected
Civil Servants do not dictate policy - the Minister is the only one empowered to do so.
Civil Servants do not contravene the wishes of the Minister unless ther eis an illegal act.

It doesnt matter if a CS thinks whats being done is incredibly stupid, wrong, misguided, a financial disaster waiting to happen (etc), we are obliged to carry out our duties. Thats why you have an elected Government - the will of the people. I personally have more than a dozen times shook my head in disbelief at the course of action in my own area/brief - but c'est la vie! You do yuor duty and the duty is to give the Minister an informed choice.

Most of the civil service recognised that Decentralisation was a collossal political clusterf... but we had to go along with it. The Sec Gen in my dept found out the night befoe the budget and strongly argued against it, but was put in his place. He didn't get to make the decision - the Government do.

Opinions are given clearly to Minsters in such matters, that you dont see them doesnt mean they don't exist. I am astonished at the lack of understanding of how it works.. I mean seriously, resign because you think decentralisation is a joke? are you for real?

Get it clear, civil servants are told - give me options on this.
They draw up some. Most get whittled away by some lacky FF cllr serving as a Ministerial Policy Advisor (now THERES a scandal) and then presented to the Minister depending on what type of political bottle he/she has and the Minister (or political advisor) chooses what to do.

I've worked under 4 Ministers now and not one of them has been closed to suggestions, but every single one of them dictated what was done and took the option best suited to them, even if it wasn't the recommended course of action.

They really need to start teaching civics properly in school...
You have no problem at complaining about a "pension levy".

If you complained half as loudly about the dimwit TD's and how they screw everything up we might not be in this mess. You are at the front and get to see what happens. As long as the pay and pensions were increasing you collectively said nothing to anyone.
 

Macy

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
772
There's a reason politicians love "Yes Minister". It's not because it is close to the reality, but it absolves them of blame when things go wrong. Rather than blame the Minister responsible, a significant proportion of the electorate will rattle on about Senior Civil Servants as if they can overule a Minister.
 

cyberianpan

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
16,630
Website
www.google.com
OMG, I'm sorry, but that is one of the most incredibly stupid posts I have ever read on this site and I'm stunned at the names of those 'thanking' it! Are you utterly mad???

There is no 'collusion' - there is doing your duty. Page 1, line 1 of any CS guidebook
Civil Servants served at the whim of the Minister.
Civil Servants are not elected
Civil Servants do not dictate policy - the Minister is the only one empowered to do so.
Civil Servants do not contravene the wishes of the Minister unless ther eis an illegal act.

It doesnt matter if a CS thinks whats being done is incredibly stupid, wrong, misguided, a financial disaster waiting to happen (etc), we are obliged to carry out our duties. Thats why you have an elected Government - the will of the people. I personally have more than a dozen times shook my head in disbelief at the course of action in my own area/brief - but c'est la vie! You do yuor duty and the duty is to give the Minister an informed choice.

Most of the civil service recognised that Decentralisation was a collossal political clusterf... but we had to go along with it. The Sec Gen in my dept found out the night befoe the budget and strongly argued against it, but was put in his place. He didn't get to make the decision - the Government do.

Opinions are given clearly to Minsters in such matters, that you dont see them doesnt mean they don't exist. I am astonished at the lack of understanding of how it works.. I mean seriously, resign because you think decentralisation is a joke? are you for real?

Get it clear, civil servants are told - give me options on this.
They draw up some. Most get whittled away by some lacky FF cllr serving as a Ministerial Policy Advisor (now THERES a scandal) and then presented to the Minister depending on what type of political bottle he/she has and the Minister (or political advisor) chooses what to do.

I've worked under 4 Ministers now and not one of them has been closed to suggestions, but every single one of them dictated what was done and took the option best suited to them, even if it wasn't the recommended course of action.

They really need to start teaching civics properly in school...
If my boss asks me to do a loony thing which will likely fail: I don't do it.

Civil servants have a lovely time producing policy papers, vacillating over what colour font to use ... in the UK they have balls and are known for challenging their ministers & falling on their swords when they fail

Civil servants here show little if any appetite for initiative / risk taking / decision making

It's fine to blame the minister - in the Department of Finance alone there are 76 staff at principal officer (TD equivalent rank) or above - trying to dodge the blame is not on anymore - either civil servants use their abilities - or we don't need them.

cYp
 

Raketemensch

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 11, 2009
Messages
3,128
They really need to start teaching civics properly in school...
Most sensible thing I have read here in weeks. If they did that then we wouldn't be in half the mess we are. That and making civil servants sackable. This needs to happen for us to have any shot at becoming a 21st century society.
 

athlonedub

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Messages
431
OMG, I'm sorry, but that is one of the most incredibly stupid posts I have ever read on this site and I'm stunned at the names of those 'thanking' it! Are you utterly mad???

There is no 'collusion' - there is doing your duty. Page 1, line 1 of any CS guidebook
Civil Servants served at the whim of the Minister.
Civil Servants are not elected
Civil Servants do not dictate policy - the Minister is the only one empowered to do so.
Civil Servants do not contravene the wishes of the Minister unless ther eis an illegal act.

It doesnt matter if a CS thinks whats being done is incredibly stupid, wrong, misguided, a financial disaster waiting to happen (etc), we are obliged to carry out our duties. Thats why you have an elected Government - the will of the people. I personally have more than a dozen times shook my head in disbelief at the course of action in my own area/brief - but c'est la vie! You do yuor duty and the duty is to give the Minister an informed choice.

Most of the civil service recognised that Decentralisation was a collossal political clusterf... but we had to go along with it. The Sec Gen in my dept found out the night befoe the budget and strongly argued against it, but was put in his place. He didn't get to make the decision - the Government do.

Opinions are given clearly to Minsters in such matters, that you dont see them doesnt mean they don't exist. I am astonished at the lack of understanding of how it works.. I mean seriously, resign because you think decentralisation is a joke? are you for real?

Get it clear, civil servants are told - give me options on this.
They draw up some. Most get whittled away by some lacky FF cllr serving as a Ministerial Policy Advisor (now THERES a scandal) and then presented to the Minister depending on what type of political bottle he/she has and the Minister (or political advisor) chooses what to do.

I've worked under 4 Ministers now and not one of them has been closed to suggestions, but every single one of them dictated what was done and took the option best suited to them, even if it wasn't the recommended course of action.

They really need to start teaching civics properly in school...
Can I take it - based on my own interactions with that Department - that you are not in Finance?!! It has always been clear there that Ministers come and Ministers go, but they decide whats best!!
 

Conor

Moderator
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
5,206
If my boss asks me to do a loony thing which will likely fail: I don't do it.
Are you really saying civil servants should disregard the instructions of their democratically elected superordinates?

It's fine to blame the minister - in the Department of Finance alone there are 76 staff at principal officer (TD equivalent rank) or above - trying to dodge the blame is not on anymore
What if the minister is to blame?
 
B

birthday

OMG, I'm sorry, but that is one of the most incredibly stupid posts I have ever read on this site and I'm stunned at the names of those 'thanking' it! Are you utterly mad???

There is no 'collusion' - there is doing your duty. Page 1, line 1 of any CS guidebook
Civil Servants served at the whim of the Minister.
Civil Servants are not elected
Civil Servants do not dictate policy - the Minister is the only one empowered to do so.
Civil Servants do not contravene the wishes of the Minister unless ther eis an illegal act.

It doesnt matter if a CS thinks whats being done is incredibly stupid, wrong, misguided, a financial disaster waiting to happen (etc), we are obliged to carry out our duties. Thats why you have an elected Government - the will of the people. I personally have more than a dozen times shook my head in disbelief at the course of action in my own area/brief - but c'est la vie! You do yuor duty and the duty is to give the Minister an informed choice.

Most of the civil service recognised that Decentralisation was a collossal political clusterf... but we had to go along with it. The Sec Gen in my dept found out the night befoe the budget and strongly argued against it, but was put in his place. He didn't get to make the decision - the Government do.

Opinions are given clearly to Minsters in such matters, that you dont see them doesnt mean they don't exist. I am astonished at the lack of understanding of how it works.. I mean seriously, resign because you think decentralisation is a joke? are you for real?

Get it clear, civil servants are told - give me options on this.
They draw up some. Most get whittled away by some lacky FF cllr serving as a Ministerial Policy Advisor (now THERES a scandal) and then presented to the Minister depending on what type of political bottle he/she has and the Minister (or political advisor) chooses what to do.

I've worked under 4 Ministers now and not one of them has been closed to suggestions, but every single one of them dictated what was done and took the option best suited to them, even if it wasn't the recommended course of action.

They really need to start teaching civics properly in school...
 

adamirer

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
454
You have no problem at complaining about a "pension levy".

If you complained half as loudly about the dimwit TD's and how they screw everything up we might not be in this mess. You are at the front and get to see what happens. As long as the pay and pensions were increasing you collectively said nothing to anyone.
You'll find we didnt actually, our unions did. Theres a big difference. Secondly, the thread is about 'senior civil servants'. Senior civil servants are the 18 Sec Generals 2 dept Sec gens, 118 Assistant Secretaries and 472 PO's (as last recorded). They are not APs, HEO's, EOs and Co's - unless you're the Herald and beat the crap out of your partner, thn a HEO becomes a senior civil servant.. but i digress.

They operate under TLAC, are subject to political selections in some cases (esp the key position of Secretary Generals) and they hardly uttered a word.

Also, under the civil servants act, we are barred from commentating on political decisions through rules such as Department of Finance Circular 09/2009.

let it sink in - WE ARE LEGALLY BARRED FROM POLITICAL COMMENT (actually including this site!) in areas we work/worked in.


Civil Service Code of Standards and Behaviour
2. The Civil Service Code of Standards and Behaviour (the Code) sets out a clear framework within which civil servants must work. The Code at paragraph 4 states that civil servants in the performance of their duties:

a. “must conscientiously serve the duly elected Government of the day, the other institutions of State and the public,

b. must advise and implement policy impartially and, in particular, be conscious of the need to maintain the independence necessary to give any future Minister or Government confidence in their integrity, and

c. should not display partiality whether as a result of personal or family ties or otherwise”.


3. The Code forms part of the terms of employment of all civil servants, (including unestablished civil servants) who are expected to apply it at all times.
 
Last edited:

adamirer

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2007
Messages
454
Political Activity
12. The nature of a civil servant’s role is such that a civil servant must maintain a reserve in political matters, in order to ensure confidence in the political impartiality of the Civil Service. The restrictions placed on civil servants in relation to politics and political activity are designed to ensure that a civil servant does not do anything that could give rise to a perception that his or her official actions are in any way influenced or capable of being influenced by party political motives.


13. Civil servants other than –
a. Civil servants in the craft, state industrial and manual grades and grades below clerical grades,

b. Clerical grades and non-industrial grades with salary maxima equal to or below the Clerical Officer maximum who have obtained permission from their Department to engage in politics,

c. Special advisers and the personal appointees of Ministers, Ministers of State, Parliamentary office holders and the Attorney General holding temporary unestablished positions,

d. Persons expressly permitted to do so by the terms of their employment,

are prohibited from engaging in politics i.e. they may not contribute to public debate and may not support or oppose a candidate or party either in writing, by public debate or by contribution to the media (e.g. letter writing to newspapers, contribution to television or radio programmes, discussions on the internet, etc.), except if required to do so as part of their official duties.
14. Civil servants, other than those in the exempted categories in paragraph 13 must not speak in public on matters of local or national political controversy or express views on such matters in the media (including electronic media and the press) or in books, academic papers, articles or leaflets.

--------------------
That my friends, is why the very small number of civil servants who post here, are very wary about their identity, never discuss their own dept and why you don't hear them giving the inside track on decisions taken in their area they feel are wrong. Hell, its unambiguous, we shouldn't be speaking at all - but holding the above line at least limits the conflict of interest argument.

People don't seem to understand how the civil service HAS to work. We have to be impartial, regardless of our politics. And the civil service isnt one homogenous unit. Myself and another colleague who posts here are both in our union. He's a left wing, republican very much the socialist persuasion. I'm more libertarian and would be more the FG/Lab side, others would be very FF minded.

If we all acted, leaking and making statements as suits our opinion on said issues, no Minister would be able to have faith in our willingness to serve. When the organs of the State refuse to carry out the will of the democratically elected governmnet, you get a very dangerous environment.
 
Last edited:

Bobert

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,072
What if the minister is to blame?

Sir Humphrey: My job is to carry out government policy.
Hacker
: Even if you think it's wrong?
Sir Humphrey: Well, almost all government policy is wrong, but…frightfully well carried out.
 

Leftfemme22

Active member
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
216
Senior civil servants have colluded in the destruction of the Irish economy. From Benchmarking, de-centralisation, ludicrously high pay rates across senior public service, absent financial regulation, defence of Ceann Comhairle expenses the hand of senior civil servants is to be seen.
It is not acceptable to simply claim that these policies were initiated by FF/PD ministers. All along the way detailed policy was formulated and implemented by senior civil servants who had the option of resigning or at the very least of putting their opposition in writing.
A whole swathe of senior civil servants need to be demoted to clerical officer grade unless they can PROVE that they have NOT colluded and indeed formulated the destruction of the Irish economy. They would still have jobs-only at clerical officer level.
Sigh...is this the latest pathetic attempt by FF and whats left of the PD rump to weasle out of any responsibility for the current mess the country is in?
 

DCon

Well-known member
Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
5,901
Political Activity
12. The nature of a civil servant’s role is such that a civil servant must maintain a reserve in political matters, in order to ensure confidence in the political impartiality of the Civil Service. The restrictions placed on civil servants in relation to politics and political activity are designed to ensure that a civil servant does not do anything that could give rise to a perception that his or her official actions are in any way influenced or capable of being influenced by party political motives.


13. Civil servants other than –
a. Civil servants in the craft, state industrial and manual grades and grades below clerical grades,

b. Clerical grades and non-industrial grades with salary maxima equal to or below the Clerical Officer maximum who have obtained permission from their Department to engage in politics,

c. Special advisers and the personal appointees of Ministers, Ministers of State, Parliamentary office holders and the Attorney General holding temporary unestablished positions,

d. Persons expressly permitted to do so by the terms of their employment,

are prohibited from engaging in politics.ie.
I am shocked!
 

cyberianpan

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
16,630
Website
www.google.com
Originally Posted by cyberianpan
If my boss asks me to do a loony thing which will likely fail: I don't do it.
Are you really saying civil servants should disregard the instructions of their democratically elected superordinates?


What if the minister is to blame?

Lets try this: if my boss said "manufacture 20 blue cheese guitars and make an orchestra play them near Ursa Major" ... I'd say "No can do"

In the UK recently Sir Gus O'Donnell (head of civil service) vetoed being made Deputy PM

Telegraph
However, it was reported yesterday that Sir Gus O'Donnell, the head of the Civil Service, resisted plans for Lord Mandelson to be officially declared Deputy Prime Minister, a title last held by John Prescott.

Sir Gus is said to have told Mr Brown that conferring the deputy's title on a member of the House of Lords would raise questions about democratic accountability.
There are plenty of other examples of the UK civil service exercising independence ... and when push comes to shove they are often fired for the failings of their department: something which their Irish equivalents are desperate to avoid

What if the minister is to blame?
Under the Irish system everybody abrogates their responsibility and the "system" is blamed - however we've seen some real resignations (Banks, Financial Regulator) ... now we just need the Civil Servants (and Ministers) to get used to it

cYp
 
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