Dalkey Family Seeks to Quash Verdict on Death of Baby

Kilbarry

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See articles in Irish Times and Irish Independent today on a lady who claims she was raped and had two babies as a child; both of them were allegedly murdered by her parents. One was supposed to be buried in the garden of the Dalkey house; the Gardai dug it up and found nothing. (She then began to make allegations against them - and not of negligence either!)

However at very belated inquest in 2007, the jury decided that she WAS the mother of a different baby whose murdered body was found in the street in 1973 (i.e. 34 years previously). Her family is taking a High Court action to challange the inquest verdict and say she NEVER had a baby as a child/teenager.

The Irish Times article is
Family seeks to quash verdict on death of baby - The Irish Times - Wed, Mar 10, 2010

The Irish Independent one is
Baby inquest verdict wrong, claims sister - Courts, National News - Independent.ie

Everything about this High Court action is unique; so was the inquest verdict 3 years ago.

Quote from Irish Times article: Opening the case yesterday, Sunniva McDonagh SC, for Ms Stevenson, said it was her client’s position, and that of other family members, that there was no baby. “It is a situation where there could not be a starker conflict of fact,” Ms McDonagh said.
 


SirHenryGrattan

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See articles in Irish Times and Irish Independent today on a lady who claims she was raped and had two babies as a child; both of them were allegedly murdered by her parents. One was supposed to be buried in the garden of the Dalkey house; the Gardai dug it up and found nothing. (She then began to make allegations against them - and not of negligence either!)

However at very belated inquest in 2007, the jury decided that she WAS the mother of a different baby whose murdered body was found in the street in 1973 (i.e. 34 years previously). Her family is taking a High Court action to challange the inquest verdict and say she NEVER had a baby as a child/teenager.

The Irish Times article is
Family seeks to quash verdict on death of baby - The Irish Times - Wed, Mar 10, 2010

The Irish Independent one is
Baby inquest verdict wrong, claims sister - Courts, National News - Independent.ie

Everything about this High Court action is unique; so was the inquest verdict 3 years ago.

Quote from Irish Times article: Opening the case yesterday, Sunniva McDonagh SC, for Ms Stevenson, said it was her client’s position, and that of other family members, that there was no baby. “It is a situation where there could not be a starker conflict of fact,” Ms McDonagh said.
Is there a Catholic Church angle to this story?
 

Kilbarry

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Is there a Catholic Church angle to this story?
Logically there should not be. However she went to the local convent school and her recent book "Living With Evil" is full of descriptions of evil nuns mistreating her, for example;

Mother Dorothy marched up the steps to the rows of desks at the back getting closer and closer to mine. "does anybody know what that awful smell is"? she demanded. My stomach was doing awful somersaults by now and I was feeling very hot. I thought I might faint.

"Shall I tell you what it is", she boomed. She was sniffing very dramatically, as if she had found the source of the foul smell and she was walking straight towards me with her eyes on fire. "The smell is dirty knickers" she shrieked. I was so shocked by what she said I blushed bright scarlet. I could feel my heart pumping blood furiously to my face. Nobody ever talked about underwear in our house, let alone dirty knickers. To hear a nun say that took my breath away.

"You might well feel embarrased Cynthia Murphy", she went on. "You are the culprit. You are the girl wearing dirty knickers. I can smell them I can smell your dirty knickers". I wanted to shrivel up and die with shame. My palms were sweating and I hung my head so low that the back of my neck ached, but she hadn't finished yet.

"I'm warning you Cynthia Murphy, wash them out every night or I'm doing a knicker inspection", she barked. "I'm pulling your knickers down and caning you if they are dirty."


This is bog standard, off the shelf stuff that we have been getting since Frank McCourt started the Mis Lit genre of "literature" with Angela's Ashes. It has little to do with the main allegations - that she was raped at home; gave birth to two children when she was 10/11 and 14; and that both were murdered.
 

ellie08

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Logically there should not be. However she went to the local convent school and her recent book "Living With Evil" is full of descriptions of evil nuns mistreating her, for example;

Mother Dorothy marched up the steps to the rows of desks at the back getting closer and closer to mine. "does anybody know what that awful smell is"? she demanded. My stomach was doing awful somersaults by now and I was feeling very hot. I thought I might faint.

"Shall I tell you what it is", she boomed. She was sniffing very dramatically, as if she had found the source of the foul smell and she was walking straight towards me with her eyes on fire. "The smell is dirty knickers" she shrieked. I was so shocked by what she said I blushed bright scarlet. I could feel my heart pumping blood furiously to my face. Nobody ever talked about underwear in our house, let alone dirty knickers. To hear a nun say that took my breath away.

"You might well feel embarrased Cynthia Murphy", she went on. "You are the culprit. You are the girl wearing dirty knickers. I can smell them I can smell your dirty knickers". I wanted to shrivel up and die with shame. My palms were sweating and I hung my head so low that the back of my neck ached, but she hadn't finished yet.

"I'm warning you Cynthia Murphy, wash them out every night or I'm doing a knicker inspection", she barked. "I'm pulling your knickers down and caning you if they are dirty."


This is bog standard, off the shelf stuff that we have been getting since Frank McCourt started the Mis Lit genre of "literature" with Angela's Ashes. It has little to do with the main allegations - that she was raped at home; gave birth to two children when she was 10/11 and 14; and that both were murdered.
You are a very sad man.
 

Kilbarry

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For anyone who is interested the blog Blather.Net ("Talking S***e since 1997") has at least two detailed articles on the Dalkey House of Horrors case. The earlier one dated 7 July 2005
Blather: The Dalkey Baby and the House of Horrors
has some very interesting quotes from newspapers including the following from the Irish Times:

In 1995, the woman told garda that she remembered being pregnant at the age of 11, but she had no recollection of the birth or the events that led to the discovery of the dead child. The woman, who has a family of her own, apparently decided to come forward following counselling sessions in Britain, where she lived for several years.

The poster "Damien" goes on to say:

Now, what do all these reports have in common? Fundamentally, they all repeat the same 'facts' which state that a woman in her 40's is claiming to have given birth to two children (one of whom was stabbed to death with a knitting needle before her eyes) and to have had no memory of the events until recieving therapy in the United Kindgom.

There is another - indirect - link here with allegations against the Catholic Church. As far as I know, the only person in Ireland to have been convicted on the basis of "Recovered Memory" evidence was former Sister of Mercy Nora Wall. (The conviction quickly collapsed when her 2 accusers gave an interview to the Irish Daily Star which published their names for the first time; one of several previous victims of their false allegations then came forward to give evidence.) That was in 1999 and it was a CRIMINAL conviction. The verdict of the "Dalkey House of Horrors" inquest jury in 2007 was not in a criminal case but it did give credence to Recovered Memory.
 

corelli

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"Recovered Memory" is not accepted in Irish Courts. That was one of the planks of the Wall appeal. A successful one too.
 

Kilbarry

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"Recovered Memory" is not accepted in Irish Courts. That was one of the planks of the Wall appeal. A successful one too.
Yes and the SECOND article on Blather.Net (dated 17 June 2006) goes into great detail on this kind of Voodoo Science:
Blather: The Return of the Dalkey Baby

The full details of Dalkey Baby story are covered in detail on blather.net in an original article from 2005. The key thing to note is that the claims at the heart of Cynthia Owen's story would appear to stem from 'memories' which were unearthed during 'regression therapy' in England. And as anyone who knows anything about the history of child-abuse hysteria will know, regression therapy is, to be quite blunt, a complete crock. More than that, it is profoudly dangerous crock, which has led to the destruction of countless homes, families and lives. ......

Whilst I have nothing but sympathy for Cynthia Owen (she has, quite clearly, suffered at length over this issue - whatever the truth of it) it's quite breath-taking that one year after the initial hullabaloo, in which time coroners, journalists, policemen and lawyers have had an abundance of time to reflect on and research this issue, we find ourselves back where we started: a three-ring media circus based on the unsubstantiated accusations of a woman whose memories of abuse stem from a dangerous branch of charlatanry; carrried out by con-men, hucksters and new-age sensationalists masquerading under the pretence of science.

The case of the Dalkey Baby and the suffering of the Owen family is upsetting in the extreme. But this should not deter those in the business of reporting 'the news' (is such a term can even be used thse days) to observe the simple fact that the entire episode has been borne of an utterly discredited, pseudo-scientific pile of nonsense. Once again, we must sadly observe, Irish journalists have manifestly failed in doing their jobs. And it's not like we're talking about a need for extensive research here: a simple google search would have told the truth of this.


Hopefully the poster "Damien" will write something about the current attempt in the High Court to overthrow the verdict of the inquest jury.
 

Kilbarry

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For anyone who is interested the blog Blather.Net ("Talking S***e since 1997") has at least two detailed articles on the Dalkey House of Horrors case. The earlier one dated 7 July 2005
Blather: The Dalkey Baby and the House of Horrors
has some very interesting quotes from newspapers including the following from the Irish Times:

In 1995, the woman told garda that she remembered being pregnant at the age of 11, but she had no recollection of the birth or the events that led to the discovery of the dead child. The woman, who has a family of her own, apparently decided to come forward following counselling sessions in Britain, where she lived for several years.

The poster "Damien" goes on to say:

Now, what do all these reports have in common? Fundamentally, they all repeat the same 'facts' which state that a woman in her 40's is claiming to have given birth to two children (one of whom was stabbed to death with a knitting needle before her eyes) and to have had no memory of the events until recieving therapy in the United Kindgom.

There is another - indirect - link here with allegations against the Catholic Church. As far as I know, the only person in Ireland to have been convicted on the basis of "Recovered Memory" evidence was former Sister of Mercy Nora Wall. (The conviction quickly collapsed when her 2 accusers gave an interview to the Irish Daily Star which published their names for the first time; one of several previous victims of their false allegations then came forward to give evidence.) That was in 1999 and it was a CRIMINAL conviction. The verdict of the "Dalkey House of Horrors" inquest jury in 2007 was not in a criminal case but it did give credence to Recovered Memory.
There is another link between the conviction of Nora Wall in 1999 and the Dalkey jury inquest in 2007 - apart from the fact that both involved Recovered Memory. Like Cynthia Owen, Nora Wall's main accuser had lived for a time in the UK. Not only has Recovered Memory little credence in Ireland; on the ONLY two occassions in which it was successfully used, the idea probably originated in the UK!
 

sadmal

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Gardai are revisiting the Dalkey house of horrors case. The allegation in that case is that a Garda led the paedophile ring. And theres allegations that improper influence helped cover up the case. Gardai revisit 'house of horrors' paedophile case - Independent.ie

I always thought it odd that the inquest jury returned a verdict of murder with no DNA evidence. The refusal of the state to exhume the baby's body also was puzzling. This was murder case and they were saying it would cause grief to the parents of other babies buried in the same grave.

I doubt they would say the same if the victim had been an adult. Sounds as if they also doubted the story.
 

Kilbarry

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Gardaí to Dig up Dublin Garden in Search for ‘Murdered Babies’

Is this the Dalkey House of Horrors case again? This has been going on for about 20 years now. I seem to recall reading that the Director of Public Prosecutions had declined on EIGHT occasions to bring a criminal prosecution against the parents of the woman making the allegations. The amount of time spent by the Gardai and DPP officials on those investigations must have been enormous. Both parents are now dead and the Gardai are STILL digging - in every sense of the word!
Gardaí to dig up Dublin garden in search for

Gardaí to Dig up Dublin Garden in Search for ‘Murdered Babies’
Woman, who says she was victim of abuse, claims to have given birth to two children


Gardaí are preparing to excavate the garden of a house in south Dublin where a woman has alleged two children she gave birth to were murdered and buried. The woman, who is now middle aged, came forward to gardaí last year and told them she had been the victim of sexual abuse at the hands of men she knew as a child. She alleged she was raped and abused over a period of about 10 years. ......


OK it says the woman came forward "last year" but all the other details seem to be identical to the Dalkey case. Did she come forward AGAIN last year or is this a completely different case??
 

China Daily

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Yes, it would appear so. If it is the same case there was some form of inquiry some years ago involving Senior Counsel Gageby and the psychologist Fred Lowe who confirmed false memories.
 

derryman

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This is scary stuff. 4 close relatives dead ,3 by suicide and one unexplained. One of the deceased leaving behind a detailed account of her abuse. This I feel should not be dismissed so readily as crock science.
 

petaljam

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This is scary stuff. 4 close relatives dead ,3 by suicide and one unexplained. One of the deceased leaving behind a detailed account of her abuse. This I feel should not be dismissed so readily as crock science.
Very likely that some very sinister stuff was going on in the family, for sure.

Whether the accounts of dead babies etc are factual or are completely unreliable versions recreated by very damaged people is impossible to say without solid evidence. I don't know if we'll ever know now, especially as I see the expert brought in says that skeletons of newborn and young babies tend to disappear after burial anyway, I presume because there's so much cartilage instead of bone.

But almost certainly there was very real abuse of the children, or they would not have turned out as damaged as they clearly are/were. Tragic. And awful to think that they didn't get help when it might have changed their lives.
 

derryman

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Very likely that some very sinister stuff was going on in the family, for sure.

Whether the accounts of dead babies etc are factual or are completely unreliable versions recreated by very damaged people is impossible to say without solid evidence. I don't know if we'll ever know now, especially as I see the expert brought in says that skeletons of newborn and young babies tend to disappear after burial anyway, I presume because there's so much cartilage instead of bone.

But almost certainly there was very real abuse of the children, or they would not have turned out as damaged as they clearly are/were. Tragic. And awful to think that they didn't get help when it might have changed their lives.
And how much more awful if there has been involvement by Gardai in the abuse and coverup.
 

petaljam

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And how much more awful if there has been involvement by Gardai in the abuse and coverup.
There was almost certainly criminal negligence by the various authorities who could and should have done something. I really couldn't speculate further because I don't know enough about the facts compared to the speculation and really can't get a clear idea on my head of what's probable and what's not.

There was an awful case in a very deprived part of the north of France some years ago where children who were being horrendously abused and prostituted out (for cigarettes basically) to friends and neighbours at one point tried to "protect" their parents by denouncing all and sundry except the guilty parties, i.e. they (or the eldest boy anyway) were enticed somehow into describing in great detail a paedophile ring involving people like solicitors, social workers, a priest who used to give the kids food, all sorts of people from a much more privileged background than the real abusers.

Several innocent people spent time in prison before the truth came out, one of them committed suicide. The children (now grown up) say they were encouraged into false testimony out of a mixture of mistakenly trying to protect their parents and the readiness of the investigators to believe the wildest accounts.

There was talk of a murdered baby buried in Belgium, turned out to be complete fantasy. The abuse however was very real, but it was next door neighbours and uncles rather than policemen and priests. So I wouldn't want either to disbelieve the children but nor would I necessarily take their accounts at face value either.

Here's a link in English to that case : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outreau_trial
(And I see I'm misremembering, the man who died while in prison may not have killed himself, but I have a feeling there was at least one attempted suicide among those wrongly imprisoned)
And also, seeing as I'm sometimes accused, wrongly IMO, of having a problem with religious people per se, when I certainly don't, it's worth pointing out that the priest who was imprisoned in this case appears to be one of the most amazing people I've ever read about. OTOH he was/is a very leftwing quite maverick priest who chose to live in a very deprived area pretty much against the wishes of his hierarchy, he's certainly not someone who was ever going to end up as bishop or Cardinal. So not in the least bit typical - but someone who really tried to apply what he saw as Christ's life to the modern world.
 
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HereWeGoAgain

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From Independent article by Brighid McLaughlin, dated 24/7/2007 -

A beautiful life lost to utter hell - Independent.ie

In what seems like a savage irony of the saddest order, it has taken Theresa's death to confirm her sister's accusations of barbaric abuse. Thisis the only evidence we have.On March 1, 2005, 200 people attended Theresa's funeral. Kevin Harran, the love of Theresa's life, granted her final wish to be cremated in peace with neither of her parents present. Theresa's ashes were surrendered to the sea in Dun Laoghaire, a place where she had always found peace.

When Niamh asked the priest if could she say a few words at the funeral service, he said yes. She asked him was he sure? He said yes. But even he was not prepared for what Niamh said.

She told the congregation that she and her siblings were abused, she said that two of her siblings had committed suicide because they were abused and that they just couldn't live with the fact that they would never get justice. She pointed out that it was suspected that a third sibling, her brother Michael, also committed suicide because he was abused too.

She said that they had all suffered these crimes, for week after week, month after month, year after year, on child after child after child. Yet no-one apparently noticed and no-one was ever punished. She said her own daughter, had she lived, would have been 32 years old on that day, and she had been fighting this battle for justice since her daughter's birth. She said that she would never give up, and that she was now fighting for her siblings too, as well as her son John, buried in the garden in Dalkey.

The priest was in tears. On the altar, Niamh was supported by her husband, who held her while she spoke. He has stood by her loyally through all this. They have been together for over 18 years. Niamh spoke from her heart, she spoke the truth,but the 200 people who stood up to applaud her already knew that
 

HereWeGoAgain

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I cant give this post a like. There is nothing to like about it. When I read such as this I am so thankful for the life I have lived. I hope there is a special hell for all these abusers and killers of the Innocent and defenceless.
Me too... I've read it many times and each time it makes me weep.
It is beyond tragic.
Cynthia has not given up her fight on behalf of siblings who took their own lives.
People are alive today who know what happened and who participated in their abuse and subsequent cover-ups.
As children they 'did not matter' ... as adults they could not were 'disregarded' and 'unheard' and that became unbearable and impossible to live with.

Rest In Peace Theresa, Michael and Martin Murphy
 


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