• It has come to our attention that some users may have been "banned" when they tried to change their passwords after the site was hacked due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software. This would have occurred around the end of February and does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you believe you were affected by this, please contact a staff member or use the Contact us link at the bottom of any forum page.

damning indictment of senior civil service


B

birthday

http://www.independent.ie/civil-service-putting-own-privileges-before-state


Civil service 'putting own privileges before State'

Maurice Hayes suggests 'self-inflicted wound' of low status.

We do not get this type of comment very often, we should listen.

Telling it as it is? Or will he be accused of jealousy or getting back at former colleagues.

The article states that he knocks the decison to remove public sector pay "from democratic scrutiny and debate by the elected legislature'' in order to hand it over "to the social partnership, including such bizarre groups as Superiors of Religious Orders''.

What would Dermot McCarthy have to say?
 

Volatire

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
13,382
Senior Civil Servants used to be the main line of defense against the gombeen showers that the Irish electorate return so reliably after each election. At some point during the Ahern era, policy scrutiny and oversight were replaced by arrogance and an obsession with status.

Hayes puts his finger on this moral and intellectual decay.

Excessive pay and perks had a corrosive effect on senior civil servants. It may have been hard for poorly educated inbreds at the top of the Civil Service to comprehend the complexities of the modern world. For the Patrick Nearys of this world, it was easier to focus on fattening up their personal pension provisions than to investigate the stability of the financial system.

Of course, our gombeen politcial class is probably incapable of cleaning the Augean stables.
 
B

birthday

Senior Civil Servants used to be the main line of defense against the gombeen showers that the Irish electorate return so reliably after each election. At some point during the Ahern era, policy scrutiny and oversight were replaced by arrogance and an obsession with status.

Hayes puts his finger on this moral and intellectual decay.

Excessive pay and perks had a corrosive effect on senior civil servants. It may have been hard for poorly educated inbreds at the top of the Civil Service to comprehend the complexities of the modern world. For the Patrick Nearys of this world, it was easier to focus on fattening up their personal pension provisions than to investigate the stability of the financial system.

Of course, our gombeen politcial class is probably incapable of cleaning the Augean stables.
I would agree with you that this seems to have arisen at some stage during the Ahern era.

Was this because certain character types tended to be promoted to higher grades?

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QqQIwAA&url=http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/civil-service-putting-own-privileges-before-state-29120374.html&ei=wsw8UY3FMo6N7AadroGIBA&usg=AFQjCNEJBf9z7Btx4uC8dt-slDn_JETIxg&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZG4
 

Devil Eire

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 15, 2011
Messages
708
I would agree with you that this seems to have arisen at some stage during the Ahern era.
I suggest that history has not yet BEGUN to comprehend the long term damage that Bertie Ahern has done to this country. The few grubby shillings he 'won on the horses' is in the halpenny place, a mere distraction.
 

neiphin

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Messages
5,579
the irish independent

how much is the irish taxpayer paying to bail out that rag ?
 

neiphin

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Messages
5,579
dont they have a weekly article lambasting the ps
 

gatsbygirl20

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
22,790
http://www.independent.ie/civil-service-putting-own-privileges-before-state


Civil service 'putting own privileges before State'

Maurice Hayes suggests 'self-inflicted wound' of low status.

We do not get this type of comment very often, we should listen.
:D We do not get this type of comment very often, we should listen....

On the contrary, rarely does a Sunday go by that we do NOT get "this type of comment" in the Sindo.

It is always good for a "Aren't Civil Servants Awful?" article..

Let us recall Jody Corcoran and his article assuring us that civil servants were "inherently dysfunctional people".....and Eoghan Harris heaping opprobrium on their heads.....and Eilis O'Hanlon....

No, we get plenty of this type of comment from certain quarters...favourite passtime, in fact..
 

Little Brother

Active member
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
113
Excessive pay and perks had a corrosive effect on senior civil servants. It may have been hard for poorly educated inbreds at the top of the Civil Service to comprehend the complexities of the modern world. For the Patrick Nearys of this world, it was easier to focus on fattening up their personal pension provisions than to investigate the stability of the financial system.

Of course, our gombeen politcial class is probably incapable of cleaning the Augean stables.
g the Augean stables.
I wouldn't disagree with the idea that people in the civil service should have offered stiffer resistance to what was being allowed, by default, by politicians and regulators during the boom years; but how does the sentence in bold contribute to a reasoned or even reasonable discussion?
 

Zerubbabel

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
1,963
Senior Civil Servants used to be the main line of defense against the gombeen showers that the Irish electorate return so reliably after each election. At some point during the Ahern era, policy scrutiny and oversight were replaced by arrogance and an obsession with status.

Hayes puts his finger on this moral and intellectual decay.

Excessive pay and perks had a corrosive effect on senior civil servants. It may have been hard for poorly educated inbreds at the top of the Civil Service to comprehend the complexities of the modern world. For the Patrick Nearys of this world, it was easier to focus on fattening up their personal pension provisions than to investigate the stability of the financial system.

Of course, our gombeen politcial class is probably incapable of cleaning the Augean stables.
You're missing the point, the senior civil service nowadays are all political appointee's, Patrick Neary being a prime example, a man that was carefully chosen by Ahern specifically to turn a blind eye to Anglo and the banking and property shenanigans. If a traditional conservative and cautious public servant had held the role, things might have been very different today.

Instead, we went from this :




to this :



with the inevitable consequences
 
Last edited:

discentes

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Messages
2,717
I could tell you some stories of civil servants of the past. They put the current lot in the ha'penny place.

You'd swear the civil service was composed completely of TK Whitakers in the past, or something.

From my own experience the quality of civil servant varies wildly between departments and grades. Overall, it's the same as the private sector, really. With the one exception that you get anomalies in the HSE/Universities who are on a huge money and literally do nothing, or, even worse, have literally no role after mergers/changes.
 
Last edited:

wombat

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
31,949
The article states that he knocks the decison to remove public sector pay "from democratic scrutiny and debate by the elected legislature'' in order to hand it over "to the social partnership, including such bizarre groups as Superiors of Religious Orders''.
Mr Hayes is about 10 years late and several hundred million euros short in worrying about the Partnership process, which, for good or ill, was the policy of the elected govt. People returned the Ahern govt. at several elections, it is not the civil service's role to 2nd guess what the govt decide - they may advise but they must obey. I seem to remember the same Mr Hayes having his time at the trough.
 

Mushroom

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2009
Messages
15,777
What would Dermot McCarthy have to say?
"I owe it all to Bertie and Social Partnership" probably.

Thanks be to goodness that he didn't manage to swing his yearned-for appointment as Ambassador to the Vatican. Gilmore probably deserves some praise for stopping that one.
 

LamportsEdge

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
21,894
Quite frankly none of the current crop of Secretary Generals or their Deputies who accepted McCreevy's bribe to look the other way between 2002 and 2008 should even be in a job.

They accepted bonuses of up to 15% of annual salary from McCreevy's 'Performance Review Board' each year, a Board on which sat a more likely parcel of suspects in the long con that was the Celtic Tiger than you'll ever meet again- including a member of the Board of the Independent and a former Chairman of Anglo Irish Bank.

If you want to know how the senior levels of the civil service in each department in Ireland were bribed to suspend their much vaunted 'independence' in the Republic in the cause of the Tiger years all you have to do is look at the history and make-up of that 'Performance Review Board'.

I have to say that if I had my way not one of those people who accepted that bribery scheme would be in a job now.
 

dresden8

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
14,937
Quite frankly none of the current crop of Secretary Generals or their Deputies who accepted McCreevy's bribe to look the other way between 2002 and 2008 should even be in a job.

They accepted bonuses of up to 15% of annual salary from McCreevy's 'Performance Review Board' each year, a Board on which sat a more likely parcel of suspects in the long con that was the Celtic Tiger than you'll ever meet again- including a member of the Board of the Independent and a former Chairman of Anglo Irish Bank.

If you want to know how the senior levels of the civil service in each department in Ireland were bribed to suspend their much vaunted 'independence' in the Republic in the cause of the Tiger years all you have to do is look at the history and make-up of that 'Performance Review Board'.

I have to say that if I had my way not one of those people who accepted that bribery scheme would be in a job now.
You may recall these people didn't get a paycut, they just lost their bonus. This was on the basis that the bonus was automatic anyway and was part of core pay.

And they didn't have to march or go on strike, a nice polite letter to that bastard Lenihan sorted that one out.

Scum. It's not public vs private people, it's top vs bottom. And it always has been.
 

Pissyknickers

Active member
Joined
Oct 1, 2012
Messages
232
There is no surprise here. His remarks are to be applauded but come four years after the clique set up an inner cocoon within Croke Park. At over 55 it's all about the biggest asset on their balance sheet, the pension. Each year served adds, exponentially, more and any promotion multiplies the value off the chart. Anyone with a professional knowledge of pensions could see through the various tricks used to protect this clique.

Pensions linked to salary grade rises are worth 40 times the pension in capital value but calculated to be worth just 20 times in the public sector so as to avoid taxes and ceilings. The 2010 early retirement scheme was straight forward gouging of benefits, luring over 55s into retirement on inflated salaries and lump sums. The list goes on.

Senior civil servants are very bright, bright enough to grasp that the pensions model is broken. Theirs is a game of getting out fast with as much loot as possible, then claim the hoary old protection of property rights rather than tell the truth, that the schemes are unaffordable and have to be radically reformed. The total income tax take now from the PS sector matches the exponentially rising cost of the annual pensions bill, a crossover point that beggars the PS argument that it is a net contributor towards its pensions. It ain't.
 

LamportsEdge

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
21,894
You may recall these people didn't get a paycut, they just lost their bonus. This was on the basis that the bonus was automatic anyway and was part of core pay.

And they didn't have to march or go on strike, a nice polite letter to that bastard Lenihan sorted that one out.

Scum. It's not public vs private people, it's top vs bottom. And it always has been.
The McCreevy Bribe scheme was hurriedly folded in 2008 and the 'performance review board' stood down. I noticed in the oifiguil release the biographical histories of the ex-board members of Anglo and the Independent were clearly massaged to excise those parts of their career histories.

Kevin Cardiff was still in place at the time and the whole hurried shelving and paperwork around it smelled strongly of his level of civil service 'independence'.

I took it to mean that even in 2008 the civil servants were running interference for Fianna Fail and the excising of embarrassing detail from the board's biographies was a classic Irish civil service maneouver.

Self-protective forgetting-of-detail.
 

Franzoni

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
16,469
You may recall these people didn't get a paycut, they just lost their bonus. This was on the basis that the bonus was automatic anyway and was part of core pay.

And they didn't have to march or go on strike, a nice polite letter to that bastard Lenihan sorted that one out.

Scum. It's not public vs private people, it's top vs bottom. And it always has been.
Yup...and the biggest 'stroke' went down after our so called 'revolution'.......
 

The Old Woman

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2012
Messages
1,505
:D We do not get this type of comment very often, we should listen....

On the contrary, rarely does a Sunday go by that we do NOT get "this type of comment" in the Sindo.

It is always good for a "Aren't Civil Servants Awful?" article..

Let us recall Jody Corcoran and his article assuring us that civil servants were "inherently dysfunctional people".....and Eoghan Harris heaping opprobrium on their heads.....and Eilis O'Hanlon....

No, we get plenty of this type of comment from certain quarters...favourite passtime, in fact..
It has always been in the remit of government and the civil service to provide accountable transparent goverment. For years and years
all parties of all colours "promise" this yet we dont have it. It should always have been a requirement of employment.

I am sick listening to apologists of this failure decrying when anyone points out that there is an enlistist civil sector that needs substantial reform. A sector who think they have inherant right to a job and pay. These would be apologists who enable the lack of proper reform

Poor me apologist who only attempt of defence is to proprogate the age old arguement of the civil service verses the private sector.
This elistist civil service could always have opted to clean up there own shop - hell will freeze over first.

This top echelons civil service who played a part in the damage done and being visited on this country agreed an bailout on jobs that were technically gone in a bankcrupt country. This appalling agreement protected the terms, conditions and pensions of a portion of our people only. The bailout terms should never have been agreed without substantal change at civil service level. This failure endebted a portion of our people to prolonged austerity. So when this sector go on their sun holiday and Irish Joe citizens are sitting with blankets around them because they can not afford heating - I am sure this sector will rest in the knowledge that they have done their job.

They are a contemptable group of so called Irish citizens.

We now live in a society break-down:

The very wealthy
The top elistist civil service
The normal valued public and civil service who must bear a responsibility in not demanding reform of their top ranks and procedures.
Those paid through social welfare
Gobshxte joe public who is expected to pay much of the above three catogories.

Only idiots would fail to understand that the pressure on the "base" is overbearing.
 

davoid

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
9,711
:D We do not get this type of comment very often, we should listen....

On the contrary, rarely does a Sunday go by that we do NOT get "this type of comment" in the Sindo.

It is always good for a "Aren't Civil Servants Awful?" article..

Let us recall Jody Corcoran and his article assuring us that civil servants were "inherently dysfunctional people".....and Eoghan Harris heaping opprobrium on their heads.....and Eilis O'Hanlon....

No, we get plenty of this type of comment from certain quarters...favourite passtime, in fact..
but it was an insider who called a spade a spade. Blaming the indo is to divert the debate
 
Top