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Dan O'Brien on Irish Neutrality. Did the Irish Government try to trade reunification for NATO membership?

TruthInTheNews

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Dan O'Brien on Irish Neutrality. Did the Irish Government try to trade reunification for NATO membership?

Dan O'Brien writing in the Irish Independent makes the claim that the Irish Government tried to trade reunification for NATO membership? Is this claim historically accurate? I always thought that Ireland decided to remain neutral because the overwhelming majority of the Irish voters supported a policy of neutrality.


When Nato was being established in the years after World War II, governments of the time believed that Ireland's strategic position in the north Atlantic would make it an indispensable member. Ireland effectively told the US, which was and always has been the leading Nato member, that membership would only happen if Washington pressured London on Irish reunification. This was both an overestimation of the strategic importance of Ireland's geography and an underestimation of the importance to the US of its British ally. The Americans said they had no intention of getting involved in the border issue in exchange for Ireland signing up to Nato. When a one-to-one security arrangement with the US was proposed, that was also refused. Washington said it was Nato or nothing. Ireland chose nothing and so began the post-1945 phase of neutrality which exists to this day.


Ireland takes a free ride on the back of Nato as it protects us - Independent.ie
 


parentheses

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Dan O'Brien writing in the Irish Independent makes the claim that the Irish Government tried to trade reunification for NATO membership? Is this claim historically accurate? I always thought that Ireland decided to remain neutral because the overwhelming majority of the Irish voters supported a policy of neutrality.


When Nato was being established in the years after World War II, governments of the time believed that Ireland's strategic position in the north Atlantic would make it an indispensable member. Ireland effectively told the US, which was and always has been the leading Nato member, that membership would only happen if Washington pressured London on Irish reunification. This was both an overestimation of the strategic importance of Ireland's geography and an underestimation of the importance to the US of its British ally. The Americans said they had no intention of getting involved in the border issue in exchange for Ireland signing up to Nato. When a one-to-one security arrangement with the US was proposed, that was also refused. Washington said it was Nato or nothing. Ireland chose nothing and so began the post-1945 phase of neutrality which exists to this day.


Ireland takes a free ride on the back of Nato as it protects us - Independent.ie
O'Brien is correct AFAIK.
 

Drogheda445

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It's essentially true. Ireland in the late 1940s (round the time that the Anti-Partition Movement began to kick off) refused to join any alliance whose members occupied part of the "national territory" (ie. Britain). Nothing to do with an intention of being non-aligned, in foreign policy terms Ireland was always anti-communist.

Not that it was necessarily a bad thing to remain neutral, probably one of the few good decisions we made at that time, but it had nothing to do with some humanitarianism or pacifist sentiment.
 

The_SR

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Was it not more a statement of reality? It's politically not viable to go on maneuvers with, never mind take orders from, the British military while partition exists. If you help remove partition we can talk about membership.
 

wombat

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It's essentially true. Ireland in the late 1940s (round the time that the Anti-Partition Movement began to kick off) refused to join any alliance whose members occupied part of the "national territory" (ie. Britain). Nothing to do with an intention of being non-aligned, in foreign policy terms Ireland was always anti-communist.

Not that it was necessarily a bad thing to remain neutral, probably one of the few good decisions we made at that time, but it had nothing to do with some humanitarianism or pacifist sentiment.
That's what I heard years ago too.
 

cozzy121

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It reads like boy who cried russia...
 

between the bridges

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Mexicians in whingen for help shocker...
 

Spanner Island

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Dan O'Brien writing in the Irish Independent makes the claim that the Irish Government tried to trade reunification for NATO membership? Is this claim historically accurate? I always thought that Ireland decided to remain neutral because the overwhelming majority of the Irish voters supported a policy of neutrality.
If we Irish took neutrality seriously and invested in defending it like the Swiss do etc... i.e. invest in proper defence forces in the air, on the land and in our case on the sea too... then Irish people might think a bit more about it and weigh up the options a bit more.

But the fact is we don't value neutrality at all.

We're totally complacent about it and think it's fine to spend f*** all on defending it.
 

Cruimh

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It's essentially true. Ireland in the late 1940s (round the time that the Anti-Partition Movement began to kick off) refused to join any alliance whose members occupied part of the "national territory" (ie. Britain). Nothing to do with an intention of being non-aligned, in foreign policy terms Ireland was always anti-communist.

Not that it was necessarily a bad thing to remain neutral, probably one of the few good decisions we made at that time, but it had nothing to do with some humanitarianism or pacifist sentiment.
And besides, despite what Dan O'Brien, rather disingenuously, says

That has happened because we have had the luxury of knowing that our natural allies - most particularly the US - would intervene if, say, the Soviets had attempted to pick off a small, undefended island.
Ireland knows that it is protected by the UK. So why buy a cow when you get the milk for free?

Ireland trusted the US as much as it trusted the UK during WWII. Hence the outrage when the US troops arrived in NI in 1942.They were, with some justification, seriously concerned that US troops would be used to take the treaty ports and occupy Éire to deny it to any German attempt to invade.


And lastly - there was no new revelation about the UK providing Air Cover for the ROI post 9/11.

Dáil Éireann - Volume 561 - 19 February, 2003
Ceisteanna – Questions (Resumed). Priority Questions. - Terrorist Attacks.

Mr. McGinley: If the Minister got a phone call this afternoon that an aeroplane loaded with explosives was headed towards a target here, what would be our capacity to intercept that aeroplane? Would we have to call on some of our neighbours to do the needful?
Mr. M. Smith: I have already answered the question in one sense but I do not want to go into any detail regarding the exceptional circumstances outlined by the Deputy. The security services have planned for such events and it would be improper to discuss those plans in public. However, it is clear that outside assistance would be required.

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0561/D.0561.200302190012.html
 

Analyzer

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If Dan O'Brien wants to join a military adventure, there are armies looking for recruits.

Or maybe like everything else Dan O'Brien supports, this is a case of Dan talking anf other people actuslly foing something.

Dan O'Brien is the new Dan McLaughlin in The Sh1te Rimes.
 

former wesleyan

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In a Christmas broadcast in 1941 - I think - De Valera appealed to the US for arms at a time when it looked like the Axis were on a roll. Most neutral nations at the time used it either like Spain as a bargining chip or Sweden who made a huge profit from ball bearings and ore. Irish labour in Britain remitted hundreds of thousands which kept the country afloat economically.
 

stakerwallace

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Neutrality isn't really an article of faith in this country. It was never enshrined in an article in the Bunreacht as far as I know. It is very much a pragmatic position wherein we are culturally attached to the western powers but haven't formalised it in a concrete way. The US and UK seem to understand our dubious position of benign neutrality towards them with generous use of Shannon thrown in for the US when required. All told, it's an attempt at a bit of cute hoorism which isn't that cute at all as it is very transparent.
 

Civic_critic2

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That article should leave no-one in any doubt that Dan O'Brien is an asset, whether of our government or a foreign one I can't say but that article has clearly been commissioned as part of a policy of attempting to move Ireland towards NATO.

I said years ago that this was what they were going to try.

O'Brien uses every half-baked sophistry to try to shame, cajole and deceive the Irish into getting involved with murdering people. This disgusting charlatan uses the following appallingly cynical image to try to tell us we should be involved with these people:



Those American soldiers and their UK allies have killed 1.5 million people in the last 15 years.
 

Vega1447

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That article should leave no-one in any doubt that Dan O'Brien is an asset, whether of our government or a foreign one I can't say but that article has clearly been commissioned as part of a policy of attempting to move Ireland towards NATO.
Do you support Ireland having the ability to defend itself rather than (as in the Dáil reference above) relying on outside assistance?
 

Analyzer

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We sold out our sovereignty for a pat on the head from Brussels.

The institutional state is run by useless parasites who will sell us out, in a nanosecond.

Nuetrality is all that is left of any remaining conscience.

And for the business editor of The Sh1te Rimes, that is clearly too much.

Phuck The Sh1te Rimes, & their mates in the banking and real estate ponzi scheming sectors.
 

Analyzer

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We have naval vessels and the country is a highway for the transit of Cocsine into Britain.

We are not using what we got to protect our waters.
 

stakerwallace

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We sold out our sovereignty for a pat on the head from Brussels.

The institutional state is run by useless parasites who will sell us out, in a nanosecond.

Nuetrality is all that is left of any remaining conscience.

And for the business editor of The Sh1te Rimes, that is clearly too much.

Phuck The Sh1te Rimes, & their mates in the banking and real estate ponzi scheming sectors.
Long before Brussels and EU it seems we were passing info on to the UK during WW 2 about U Boat sightings off the coast.
 

rainmaker

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Long before Brussels and EU it seems we were passing info on to the UK during WW 2 about U Boat sightings off the coast.
Ireland I believe did a bit more than that as well, and was of significant help with certain war efforts.

For instance captured Germans were detained for the duration, while allied servicemen such as valuable pilots were quietly repatriated. I doubt the nazis were ever completely convinced by Irish neutrality.

Vital meteorological information for the Atlantic was supplied to the allies as well I believe.
 

Civic_critic2

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Do you support Ireland having the ability to defend itself rather than (as in the Dáil reference above) relying on outside assistance?
I have explained myself copiously over the years. The fact is, the analysis I have given is the one that most completely explains the history and posture of this state geopolitically including our neutrality. The analysis I have given also allows you to predict what the moves will be of the Irish institutional state. And sure enough what I said is coming to pass.

On the other hand the Irish, especially the southern Irish, are resolutely determined to discuss this in the most superficial, vague, the most simpering and inconsequential manner. They are infantile and determined to remain that way. The contrast is stark between the harmless and geotrategically clueless way they discuss Ireland as a country in its geopolitical and military sphere as against the sudden infusion of miltaristic fetishism, enthusaism and presumption of the right to bomb and have lots of ordnance that they give to the British when discussing British 'defence'.

Anyway I am sure that in the following pages a huge amount of frightened denial and childish reasoning will be applied to this topic as usual.
 

Old Mr Grouser

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Ireland I believe did a bit more than that as well, and was of significant help with certain war efforts ...

Vital meteorological information for the Atlantic was supplied to the allies as well
And a lot more as well, for example -

G2 intercepted German naval and aerial communications through listening stations located across Ireland, sharing the information with Allied forces.

Under the legendary Colonel Daniel "Dan" Bryan, Director of Intelligence, G2 apprehended all thirteen Nazi spies sent to Ireland and broke German codes during the war, under the supervision of cryptologist Richard J. Hayes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directorate_of_Military_Intelligence_(Ireland)
And Ireland's diplomats in Axis countries also provided the Allies with intelligence.
 

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