Debunked: 12 Left wing reasons for staying in the EU.

Kommunist

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I cant be responsible for my admirers, dear, you of all people should know that :)

I have no respect for what the EU now is. However the alternative is worse. The corporates really do want fragmentation so they can rule. When they have broken down all supranational institutions, they will roll up the national ones.

Exiting the EU is no ticket anywhere.
This is not correct. The reason there's centralization is to

1. Make it easier to force political will on sovereign countries

2. Let finance capital flow easier (credit flooding).

Privatization is also a part of the parcel as EU legislation is categorically against the state monopolies i.e state owned enterprises.
 


D

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And they will act no differently outwith the EU.

Only they will sell the ports to China in a heart beat.

If Britain exits the EU, there will be a colossal impact on the Irish economy. I bn stg worth of trade per week could go up in smoke.

That wont lead to anything but further impoverishment for the ordinary people. Let us be realistic now.
You don't really know what will happen though do you? Nobody does.
It could actually mean more trade with the UK.

If the UK connect with China in a big way then that could mean a conduit to more trade with them.
via UK companies for instance. Who really knows is what I am saying. And such financial scare stories are exactly how the EU have controlled how we think and act in the past. How can you be sure that these are not just the same tactic being used again?
certainly there will be some adjustments and headaches. I'm not saying there won't be.
 

Ardillaun

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Brexit? Bad in the short term, bad for the poor, bad for Northern Ireland, bad for us. Good for the spivs, really. I just need to take one look at Johnson and Gove to reassure myself I'm on the right side. It would ALMOST be worth it, though, to watch the DUP slowly realizing what they helped bring about but I'm bigger than that.
 

Truth.ie

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Brexit? Bad in the short term, bad for the poor, bad for Northern Ireland, bad for us. Good for the spivs, really. I just need to take one look at Johnson and Gove to reassure myself I'm on the right side. It would ALMOST be worth it, though, to watch the DUP slowly realizing what they helped bring about but I'm bigger than that.
This kind of thinking drives me nuts.
Here's the spivs on your side.
Cameron, Kenny, Da Bert, the IMF, NATO, the Pentagon, Tony Blair, the multi-nationals, and the big banks.

Same nonsense thinking....."if the Prods are voting Yes, then I'm voting No".

I'm voting for Brexit for purely tactical reasons.
I hope it will speed up the Irexit.
 

ibis

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Kommunist said:
Ireland is paying 42% of the over-all EU banking debt?
Er, no. The 42% figure is from Michael Taft, and is based on two seriously misleading points, one a statistical trick, the other a political claim without supporting evidence.

First, the statistical fudge. The figure is based only on debt of the promissory note kind, so by Taft's figures our "bank debt" consists only of that way of putting money into the banks, which doesn't cover our actual banking debt.

Of all the money spent around the eurozone on banks, such debt is unusual. Most governments out capital into banks and received bank shares in return - as did our government for the rest of Irish bank debt, the bit Taft leaves out.

Taft actually calculates how much our promissory-note-style bank recap is of all such promissory-note-style recaps in the eurozone, and comes to a high 42% figure because we were, in the eurozone, the country that used the most of that particular type of recapitalisation instrument.

The amount our government spent on recapitalising Irish banks, including the purchasing of shares, is about 11% of the money spent on recapitalising banks all round the eurozone, when all the ways in which that was done are counted.


Second, the more political point. There is no such thing as "EU banking debt", and nobody paid it. Ireland recapitalised Irish banks, and only Irish banks. The Irish banks paid any outstanding debts, just as other banks did in other countries. The web of such debts is complex, but any real analyses (as opposed to journalists making pretty pictures and citing numbers they don't understand) say that the banks with money in our banks were US and UK banks first and foremost. So if our money went anywhere it was to the UK and US.

The picture gets confused because most journalists fail to distinguish between banks operating in the Irish economy (Anglo, AIB, BOI etc) and banks in the IFSC, which happen to be based in Ireland but aren't involved with the Irish economy. There was a lot of eurozone money in the IFSC banks (and a lot of US & UK money), but it had nothing to do with our bank bailouts.
 

Kommunist

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Er, no. The 42% figure is from Michael Taft, and is based on two seriously misleading points, one a statistical trick, the other a political claim without supporting evidence.

First, the statistical fudge. The figure is based only on debt of the promissory note kind, so by Taft's figures our "bank debt" consists only of that way of putting money into the banks, which doesn't cover our actual banking debt.

Of all the money spent around the eurozone on banks, such debt is unusual. Most governments out capital into banks and received bank shares in return - as did our government for the rest of Irish bank debt, the bit Taft leaves out.

Taft actually calculates how much our promissory-note-style bank recap is of all such promissory-note-style recaps in the eurozone, and comes to a high 42% figure because we were, in the eurozone, the country that used the most of that particular type of recapitalisation instrument.

The amount our government spent on recapitalising Irish banks, including the purchasing of shares, is about 11% of the money spent on recapitalising banks all round the eurozone, when all the ways in which that was done are counted.


Second, the more political point. There is no such thing as "EU banking debt", and nobody paid it. Ireland recapitalised Irish banks, and only Irish banks. The Irish banks paid any outstanding debts, just as other banks did in other countries. The web of such debts is complex, but any real analyses (as opposed to journalists making pretty pictures and citing numbers they don't understand) say that the banks with money in our banks were US and UK banks first and foremost. So if our money went anywhere it was to the UK and US.

The picture gets confused because most journalists fail to distinguish between banks operating in the Irish economy (Anglo, AIB, BOI etc) and banks in the IFSC, which happen to be based in Ireland but aren't involved with the Irish economy. There was a lot of eurozone money in the IFSC banks (and a lot of US & UK money), but it had nothing to do with our bank bailouts.
Feel free to respond to Michael Taft and engage in a serious conversation with him. As far as I am concerned his credentials outweigh that of a random politics.ie poster.

https://thecurrentmoment.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/swapping-one-mirage-for-another-the-lefts-turn-away-from-social-europe/

Another interesting argument.
 

ibis

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Feel free to respond to Michael Taft and engage in a serious conversation with him. As far as I am concerned his credentials outweigh that of a random politics.ie poster.

https://thecurrentmoment.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/swapping-one-mirage-for-another-the-lefts-turn-away-from-social-europe/

Another interesting argument.
Already have done, thanks - you can see my comments to Taft here on his blog: Unite's Notes On The Front: A Really Really Special Case Requires a Really Really Special Solution

But I suspect you're happy to accept Taft's misleading use of statistics no matter what because they support your other views. You don't really care whether they're misleading or not. Neither, it seems, does Taft, so you're in company there.

However, your willing credulity on this provably false piece of evidence for your case suggests rather strongly that your other points could well be equally false. Like many people, you made up your mind first, then looked for evidence, without worrying too much about its validity.

Believing something yourself is not the same as that something being credible.
 
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Ardillaun

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Same nonsense thinking....."if the Prods are voting Yes, then I'm voting No".
Oh my, a lad can't have any fun around here.

Simply put, the DUP are utterly wrong on this issue, particularly for NI. However, if they were for staying, I would not suddenly join Boris and his hordes to spite them. Hand on heart.
 

Kommunist

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Already have done, thanks - you can see my comments to Taft here on his blog: Unite's Notes On The Front: A Really Really Special Case Requires a Really Really Special Solution

But I suspect you're happy to accept Taft's misleading use of statistics no matter what because they support your other views. You don't really care whether they're misleading or not. Neither, it seems, does Taft, so you're in company there.

However, your willing credulity on this provably false piece of evidence for your case suggests rather strongly that your other points could well be equally false. Like many people, you made up your mind first, then looked for evidence, without worrying too much about its validity.

Believing something yourself is not the same as that something being credible.
His response seems very solid.

Another worthwhile read regarding the EU.

http://www.cym.ie/documents/Frank.pdf
 

Truth.ie

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Oh my, a lad can't have any fun around here.

Simply put, the DUP are utterly wrong on this issue, particularly for NI. However, if they were for staying, I would not suddenly join Boris and his hordes to spite them. Hand on heart.
If SF called to leave (as they did for 40 previous years) would you still be supporting to stay?
I've no doubt the vast majority of people are being led by the nose and simply voting on a tribal basis.
SF opposed Lisbon, Nice, roaming charges, fishing regulations, Ukrainian expansionism, the strangling of Greece etc......and yet when they have a chance to make a change they vote for the status quo.

The big American donors dictate their policy these days. Grassroots are not even consulted.
 

shiel

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The EU is made up of nearly thirty democratic countries each of which signed a treaty to join.

The EU is governed by the democratically elected politicans of these nearly 30 countries that made democratic decisions to join.

In Ireland our membership of the EU not alone gives us access to a 500 million home market it also gave us a net 43 bn gain from common policies since entry.

On top of that when this country was bankrupted by the decisions during the boom of a small number of its own most powerful citizens we got an 85 bn euro bailout.

Much of that bailout was funded by the taxpayers of other sometimes poorer EU countries.

Going back to the 1930s when Ireland was failing to be self sufficient and Europe was run by totalitarian dictators is not in anybody's interest.
 

P Ryan

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The EU is made up of nearly thirty democratic countries each of which signed a treaty to join.

The EU is governed by the democratically elected politicans of these nearly 30 countries that made democratic decisions to join.

In Ireland our membership of the EU not alone gives us access to a 500 million home market it also gave us a net 43 bn gain from common policies since entry.

On top of that when this country was bankrupted by the decisions during the boom of a small number of its own most powerful citizens we got an 85 bn euro bailout.

Much of that bailout was funded by the taxpayers of other sometimes poorer EU countries.

Going back to the 1930s when Ireland was failing to be self sufficient and Europe was run by totalitarian dictators is not in anybody's interest.
Great and original argument presented above by Mr. Leavy. Never seem that posted before. petunia
 

BACKTOBASICS

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You wait till the UK is the finest little tax haven in the world.
We don't have to wait!

Ireland is THE BEST little tax haven in the world, and Britain can do this even now without Brexit if they adjust their corporation tax to match Ireland's.

Why do we hear Enda and Richard Bruton bleathing about "Ireland is the best little country in the world in which to do business".

I would like to see Britain exiting the EU, and going back to strictly trade agreements without the political complications, and join with like-minded countries like the EFTA areas.

Getting the fishing grounds back would be the big bonus IMO.
 
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Clanrickard

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Debunked.


Counterfire is a split faction from the Swuppies which has piggy-backed opportunistically on the anti-austerity movement in Britain. They are anti-Trades Union, anti- any organised actions such as general strikes, and they are basically a totally sectarian fringe group.

It comes as no surprise they are repeating the arguments of Boris Johnson and The Spectator magazine. Which is where they will end up working, just like Brendan O Neill, late of the RCP and now of course a darling of the theists :)
Would that they turn out as precise and accurate as Brendan O Neil.
 

Ardillaun

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Interesting piece:

Panama is only one head of the tax haven Hydra - FT.com

One word of caution: FATCA has been a nightmare for accidental 'US persons' of limited means in Canada who were born there, moved home early and severed all ties or who are winter snowbirds. The US can decide they are Americans, examine their bank accounts in Canada without their knowledge (the joys of bilateral negotiation with a much bigger country, watch out Brexit Britain) and demand money.
 

Dame_Enda

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I've no idea what happened to the Left in Europe.
Old Labour (both Irish and British), Sinn Fein, Unions etc were all anti-EEC.
The EEC, in comparison to the current EU was actually not as bad.

Enoch Powell and Tony Benn were right on Europe – it was a great deception - Telegraph

How could one oppose the EEC and now support the monster that is the EU?
The Left have come around to EU membership except in Sweden largely because of their obsession with multiculturalism which they see as facilitated by open borders. The Social Europe is on the way out. The Commission is strongly opposed to scrapping Irish Water. Enlargement has brought mass immigration which the Left welcomed. But it has also tilted the balance of power on the Commission and Council of Ministers and European Parliament to free marketeers. Since Enlargement the Socialists have been a minority in the EP and at the moment the Liberal ALDE group has the balance of power so you can forget about more workers rights legislation from the EU. There's an inbuilt conservative majority in most of Eastern Europe because they had a rough time under Communism.

Yes ALDE have common ground with the Socialist group on immigration but the Centre Right EPP group is more supportive of controls on immigration except some gifts like the Germans. So the question for the Left is whether they are prepared to sell out the unemployed and working classes by importing cheap labour by putting multiculturalism before workers rights? That is what Leftist supporters of the status quo appear willing to do.
 
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Mercurial

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[2. We need the EU to protect human rights - the Tories will shred our rights otherwise.
According to the article:

The European Court of Human Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights have nothing at all to do with the EU. They are completely unaffected by this referendum
But that isn't true: While one can be a party to the Convention without being a member of the EU, membership of the EU requires being a party to the Convention. Leaving the EU will therefore make it easier to pull out of the ECHR, which is something many Tories want to see happen.
 

Aindriu

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Brexit will cause a domino effect, and you can be sure Holland and France will follow.
After that the Germans will have to carry the PIGS and the Eastern European countries.
Then it will implode.
Good riddance too.
France won't go but there is a very good chance that the dutch will.
 

shiel

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Great and original argument presented above by Mr. Leavy. Never seem that posted before. petunia
Whoever that bollix Mr Leavy is he sounds like a sensible fella when he agrees with me.

So I suppose there is no harm in repeating the post to enlighten all and sundry.

The EU is made up of nearly thirty democratic countries each of which signed a treaty to join.

The EU is governed by the democratically elected politicans of these nearly 30 countries that made democratic decisions to join.

In Ireland our membership of the EU not alone gives us access to a 500 million home market it also gave us a net 43 bn gain from common policies since entry.

On top of that when this country was bankrupted by the decisions during the boom of a small number of its own most powerful citizens we got an 85 bn euro bailout.

Much of that bailout was funded by the taxpayers of other sometimes poorer EU countries.

Going back to the 1930s when Ireland was failing to be self sufficient and Europe was run by totalitarian dictators is not in anybody's interest.
 


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