Democracy or Something Else

bactrian

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May 11, 2004
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1,238
I believe in Democracy.

I believe that voters have the right to choose.

I believe that voters some times get it completely wrong.

I believe that voters have the right to choose.

I believe that voters have the right to choose,even when they are wrong. (I don't mean just because I believe they are wrong, I mean when they are actually wrong)

Democracy gets it right most of the time.

In Ireland we have been getting it wrong for a while, but, that is not the fault of Democracy. We, voters have not been paying sufficient attention. We, voters have not challenged candidates on the doorstep.

As voters we have to be clear in our priorities.

We have to ask : What is your position on this issue + What is your Party's position on this issue.

We also have to go beyond that.

We have to say : I will not vote for you because this your position on the issue + That is your Party's position on this issue.

In order for Democracy to work we have to pay attention.
 


Cruimh

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Apr 30, 2010
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The problem with that approach - refusal to support a party because you don't support one of their policies - is that very few people support all the policies of the party they end up giving their vote. And of course once one votes that party claims the mandate for all their policies.
 

Cael

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Jun 19, 2006
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13,304
I believe in Democracy.

I believe that voters have the right to choose.
Do you really think that putting some numbers on a page once ever four years is democracy? You must have really low expectations, a chara.
 
Joined
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In order for democracy to work, people have to be given a chance to cast their vote.

For example in such places as:

Donegal South-West

Dublin South

Waterford
 

Cael

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In order for democracy to work, people have to be given a chance to cast their vote.
And, of course, their vote has to actually count. They should not be threatened and bullied to change their vote if they dare to vote the "wrong" way - as in the Nice and Lisbon referenda.
 

Maximus Cynicus

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Apr 7, 2010
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I'm glad you voted me into the national parliament, Mr. Voter. I will be handsomely rewarded for keeping my mouth shut and voting with the party. Oh, and that booklet I just gave you with our "promises" for government, you should really tear it up and use it in the smallest room in your house. That's all it's good for - let's say that circumstances have changed; yes..........we can now form a government. I'll see you in another 5 years, all going well. Oh and if there are any referenda in the meantime, just vote the way we tell you or you'll have to do it all over again. Thanks for you vote.
That's democracy, Irish style.
 

hawkeye33

Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
17
Im feed up with the way the TDs just take, take,take.The way we vote needs to change.We need to vote a Goverment in from a national list and then vote a Dail in,and cut the pay they get thats just the ay I see it.
 

Rhubarbless

Member
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Jul 9, 2010
Messages
89
And I was feeling disenfranchised in California. I feel much better now. The next time I hear a neighbor complaining about having to study up on the referendums I’ll remind them of the alternative.
 

LongShanks

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Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
644
In order for democracy to work, people have to be given a chance to cast their vote.

For example in such places as:

Donegal South-West

Dublin South

Waterford
+1.

And, of course, their vote has to actually count. They should not be threatened and bullied to change their vote if they dare to vote the "wrong" way - as in the Nice and Lisbon referenda.
Agreed.

We have democracy light.
But then again we put up with it.
 

bactrian

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May 11, 2004
Messages
1,238
The problem with that approach - refusal to support a party because you don't support one of their policies - is that very few people support all the policies of the party they end up giving their vote. And of course once one votes that party claims the mandate for all their policies.

Everyone has priorities . I don't believe anyone in any political party supports all the policies of that party. It is quite reasonable to say that ,I support most of the policies of your party and those that I do not , do not matter to me. It is also reasonable to say , I support most of the policies of your party but I disagree so much with your policy on this issue that I will not vote for you.


And, of course, their vote has to actually count. They should not be threatened and bullied to change their vote if they dare to vote the "wrong" way - as in the Nice and Lisbon referenda.
Cael always has a negative comment about the democratic vote . I don't think he /she trusts the people.

"The people " (in Caels opinion) are insufficiently intelligent/educated make a good choice.

I do not always like the peoples' choice. When I disagree I will agitate and inform against that choice.

I may persuade or I may be persuaded .

Democracy is about listening and learning. Democracy also requires that we take responsibility. We must hold to our convictions , we must challenge , we must question. Most importantly we must trust ourselves, we must trust in our own judgements and we must vote according to our judgement.
 

LongShanks

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Messages
644
"The people " (in Caels opinion) are insufficiently intelligent/educated make a good choice.

I do not always like the peoples' choice. When I disagree I will agitate and inform against that choice.
Unfortunately the government didn't like the voice of the people a few times, there are numerous threads here and elsewhere where the people were castigated for being "insufficiently intelligent/educated to make a good choice", our betters told us so.
 

Cael

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Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,304
Cael always has a negative comment about the democratic vote . I don't think he /she trusts the people.

"The people " (in Caels opinion) are insufficiently intelligent/educated make a good choice.
It wasn't me who told the people that they had made the "wrong" descision in the Nice and Lisbon referenda, and it wasn't me who threatened them with economic extermination if they didnt change their vote. Nor is it me that spending 100,000 euro of taxpayers money in the courts to try and stop people exercising their right to vote.
 

EUrJokingMeRight

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Sep 28, 2009
Messages
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Irish 'voters' are morons. There is no democracy because not everyone votes. For democracy to be real, everybody must vote.
All Irish 'democracy' proves is that most people who vote are really, really stupid. And those who do not vote are even more stupid.



I believe in Democracy.

I believe that voters have the right to choose.

I believe that voters some times get it completely wrong.

I believe that voters have the right to choose.

I believe that voters have the right to choose,even when they are wrong. (I don't mean just because I believe they are wrong, I mean when they are actually wrong)

Democracy gets it right most of the time.

In Ireland we have been getting it wrong for a while, but, that is not the fault of Democracy. We, voters have not been paying sufficient attention. We, voters have not challenged candidates on the doorstep.

As voters we have to be clear in our priorities.

We have to ask : What is your position on this issue + What is your Party's position on this issue.

We also have to go beyond that.

We have to say : I will not vote for you because this your position on the issue + That is your Party's position on this issue.

In order for Democracy to work we have to pay attention.
 

Fides

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Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
4,425
Irish 'voters' are morons. There is no democracy because not everyone votes. For democracy to be real, everybody must vote.
All Irish 'democracy' proves is that most people who vote are really, really stupid. And those who do not vote are even more stupid.
It doesn't help that we don't get much of a choice whom to vote for. The people parties put up for election are a pretty poor bunch. Most are relatives of previous TDs or have done their time in the party ranks. We don't get enough intelligent, innovative, honest people of integrity and ability going into politics. I vote every time but it can be a bit depressing.
 

Munnkeyman

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Jul 14, 2010
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6,992
A kleptocracy by definition is a government or state in which those in power exploit national resources and steal; rule by thieves.​

A particracy is a de facto form of government where the will of one or more political parties in power dominates political life, not the will of individual politicians.

A hegemony is the political, economic, ideological or cultural power exerted by a dominant group over other groups, regardless of the explicit consent of the latter.​


So I believe I would be correct in saying that
The correct definition of our state government would be a klepto – particratic, quasi - democratic hegemony with an unquantifiable degree of cronyism and a dose of nepotism for good measure.​
 

bactrian

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Joined
May 11, 2004
Messages
1,238
Irish 'voters' are morons. There is no democracy because not everyone votes. For democracy to be real, everybody must vote.
All Irish 'democracy' proves is that most people who vote are really, really stupid. And those who do not vote are even more stupid.
Your contempt for the Irish electorate is clear. If you vote your are stupid, and if you don't you are more stupid;

Eh!

Doh !

Your alternative is?
 

Cael

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Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
13,304
Your contempt for the Irish electorate is clear. If you vote your are stupid, and if you don't you are more stupid;

Eh!

Doh !

Your alternative is?
How about Direct Democracy?
 

Newsy

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Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Messages
910
Irish 'voters' are morons. There is no democracy because not everyone votes. For democracy to be real, everybody must vote.
All Irish 'democracy' proves is that most people who vote are really, really stupid. And those who do not vote are even more stupid.
With all due respect, I am sick and tired of reading such posts.....where 'Irish people are stupid, morons, dumb, thick'.....bla....bla....bla....from various quarters. Such a sentiment, really doesn't help anyone or add anything of value to where we are, as a country.

We are at a time, when ALL of us, need to work together to change the political culture.....to take responsibility and DEMAND that our politians hold the highest of standards....

We also need to ask ourselves, what is it about our culture, our mentality, that at a time when our generation and our childrens future is being signed away in our name.......it is easier to get a crowd at a GAA match than for that same crowd to march on the streets to fight for their own future????

imv, that has nothing to do with being morons or stupid, but has everything to do with lack of ownership of democracy.
For those of us who vote, we hand over our right to actively be involved in what happens in our country. We, naively, in some cases, trust those who we vote for that they will do the best for us. Afterall, we have families, jobs, homes to keep over our heads, so why not trust those who come to our doors to ask for our vote??? Why should be need to keep on their a*s to do their job that WE are paying for??? Surely they would have the decency to do the best job, possible.

And as for those who DON'T vote, they believe that their vote, doesn't make a difference. What does that say about our democracy, about our political system, when a great many people believe that their vote doesn't make a difference. One could argue, they have a point.

We need to OWN our democracy......be actively involved, after, we vote, as well as before we vote, in how our country is run. We need to DEMAND accountability from those we elect.

We also need a media that can cut through the bull that our politicans speak and get to the heart of the issues.

We also need to change our mentality to value honourable, honest and trust-worthy behaviour.
 


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