Democratic Revolution ?

Cormac O Conachur

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Apr 29, 2010
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303
What are the thoughts about the chances of success of a democratic revolution.

Could a movement begin to radically change our political system with the following terms
1. A new Government for a fixed term of 5 years.
2. The Dail Only, no Seanad
3. The Taoiseach and Cabinet elected directly by the electorate, no opposition, no TD's, no senators.
4. The Programme for Government set out in broad terms for the five year term and voted on by the electorate.
5. This may require a vote to reneige on our sovereign debt relating to Anglo Irish. Let those Bond Holders Whistle. We need the money more than them.Use it to redevelope our economy and our competitiveness internationally.
6. Determine to raise taxes so as to build a soceity rather than an economy.
7. Maximise the salaries for Bankers, HSE Consultants, College Lectures, etc to be say 100k, or have some climbing scale of taxes to say 80% for anything above 200k.
8.Elect a president to listen to the people and give him/her power to turf out any of our Cabinet that is not performing or behaving as they should.


The current shower on either side of the Dail are worse than each other, the man in the street is being driven to death to support those on the right side of the deal. How about we all get on the wrong side of the deal for a while, 5 years, reform under a democratic banner . How would one kick start it off. Who would lead it, and get the role of President. A Peter Sutherland figure, Mary Robinson, Ray McSharry or a total unknown, but somebody that can bring reform.
 


stringjack

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What are the thoughts about the chances of success of a democratic revolution.

Could a movement begin to radically change our political system with the following terms
1. A new Government for a fixed term of 5 years.
2. The Dail Only, no Seanad
3. The Taoiseach and Cabinet elected directly by the electorate, no opposition, no TD's, no senators.
4. The Programme for Government set out in broad terms for the five year term and voted on by the electorate.
5. This may require a vote to reneige on our sovereign debt relating to Anglo Irish. Let those Bond Holders Whistle. We need the money more than them.Use it to redevelope our economy and our competitiveness internationally.
6. Determine to raise taxes so as to build a soceity rather than an economy.
7. Maximise the salaries for Bankers, HSE Consultants, College Lectures, etc to be say 100k, or have some climbing scale of taxes to say 80% for anything above 200k.
8.Elect a president to listen to the people and give him/her power to turf out any of our Cabinet that is not performing or behaving as they should.


The current shower on either side of the Dail are worse than each other, the man in the street is being driven to death to support those on the right side of the deal. How about we all get on the wrong side of the deal for a while, 5 years, reform under a democratic banner . How would one kick start it off. Who would lead it, and get the role of President. A Peter Sutherland figure, Mary Robinson, Ray McSharry or a total unknown, but somebody that can bring reform.
You need either this, or this. I can't quite make out.
 

gombeennation

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2,361
The system needs changing. No question. FF are not the problem - they are just the ultimate manifestation of our system.
Bert was the ultimate personification of FF.
I hope that fker dies in a fire.
Hopefully I will be there to witness it first hand.
 

Cael

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Jun 19, 2006
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13,304
What are the thoughts about the chances of success of a democratic revolution.

Could a movement begin to radically change our political system with the following terms
1. A new Government for a fixed term of 5 years.
2. The Dail Only, no Seanad
3. The Taoiseach and Cabinet elected directly by the electorate, no opposition, no TD's, no senators.
4. The Programme for Government set out in broad terms for the five year term and voted on by the electorate.
5. This may require a vote to reneige on our sovereign debt relating to Anglo Irish. Let those Bond Holders Whistle. We need the money more than them.Use it to redevelope our economy and our competitiveness internationally.
6. Determine to raise taxes so as to build a soceity rather than an economy.
7. Maximise the salaries for Bankers, HSE Consultants, College Lectures, etc to be say 100k, or have some climbing scale of taxes to say 80% for anything above 200k.
8.Elect a president to listen to the people and give him/her power to turf out any of our Cabinet that is not performing or behaving as they should.


The current shower on either side of the Dail are worse than each other, the man in the street is being driven to death to support those on the right side of the deal. How about we all get on the wrong side of the deal for a while, 5 years, reform under a democratic banner . How would one kick start it off. Who would lead it, and get the role of President. A Peter Sutherland figure, Mary Robinson, Ray McSharry or a total unknown, but somebody that can bring reform.


What you are asking for there is reform, not revolution. Though no. 6 has a revolutionary intent, i.e. to overthrow the idea that we humans exist for the sake of the economy, rather than vice versa.
 

deiseguy

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Though no. 6 has a revolutionary intent, i.e. to overthrow the idea that we humans exist for the sake of the economy, rather than vice versa.
Don't let LeDroit see number 6 he'll get cross.:eek:
 

LeDroit

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Mar 11, 2010
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Don't let LeDroit see number 6 he'll get cross.:eek:
Typical leftie fantasy fiction. Do you want to raise tax rates or raise tax revenues because the mistake most lefties make is they think if they raise rates they raise revenue? It works immediately but then the Market reacts. Tax avoidance and evasion increase. The black market increases and overall economic activity decreases. All of these factors mean your revenue drops. That's when the second wave of leftie stupidity hits and they raise rates again. The revenue keeps dropping. So why do lefties do it? Well, it's two things; some are too stupid to realise that it doesn't work and some are too proud. They just won't accept that lower rates result in higher yields.

Check out the Laffer Curve. Google it and join me on the dark side. ;)

As for the rest of your envy manifesto, you better seal the Borders to keep people IN because any ambitious people are gonna leggit. It's no accident that commie countries always need to stop their people from leaving.
 

eoghanacht

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"a democratic revolution"

Is that not an oxymoron?
 

roc_

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Dec 5, 2009
Messages
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What you are asking for there is reform, not revolution. Though no. 6 has a revolutionary intent, i.e. to overthrow the idea that we humans exist for the sake of the economy, rather than vice versa.
With regards no.6, a real start to democratic intent might come from some sort of an online application where bodies and organisations could put themselves forth, espouse what good deeds they were going to do with the money sent their way and how they were going to do it, and then individual taxpayers could direct their own taxes towards those that appealed to them. Of course, these bodies and organisations would have a broad remit in terms of the public good rather than serving any interest whether geographical or demographic or whatever. But as for the call to raise taxes for the sake of raising them to do some kind of social-democratic-communist 'good' - please I've heard enough... Cael, would you ever look at what have been done with the taxes that have been extracted from the people these last few decades (and the next few by the looks of things). As regards the OP, I can hardly see anything democratic in what you've proposed, let alone of a 'revolutionary-democratic' nature - apologies for the harsh shtick.
 

Martin75

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Sep 1, 2010
Messages
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I am a new member to this whole forum, which, of course, I had viewed previously; and which I feel serves a great purpose for society and may evolve into something even more useful. Regarding this particular post - I feel that political innovation is now possible and as such the global and national circumstances present themselves as opportunities for improvements for all of us.
In this vein then I would like to propose a title for a party that those who want substantive change could align themselves with. I will also put down a few initial thoughts - have others of similar vain but want to maintain a reasonable length to this post...

Participative Political Party of Ireland
This perhaps seems a mouthful but might indicate an interest in statements of accuracy and not in marketability; may also be quickly abbreviated!


Structure
P.P.P.I. would have a limit of two-term national stints for politicians (one term in local gov. also acceptable or two in local and one at national or three at local). Individuals expertise might be continued in party strategy etc. but career politicians will not result.

Policy
Seanad should continue its oversight function with increased bill alteration powers, but should be limited to only non-party aligned individuals. (those towing party line etc. not useful in a forum for open debate)

National politicians would be required to work full time in national parliaments and local politics would be encouraged to be conducted by local representative. Involvement in local concerns and private concerns may be legally inhibited and managed

An online source – perhaps titled opengov.ie would be run by an independent organisation with total access to all non-security related governance documentation. Opengov.ie would provide an interactive experience for the public with an ability to air opinions, lodge concerns at various points and follow progress through the houses of related issues, ministers responses etc. Planning Rationale and public expenditure – tendering etc. would be made accessible – - opengov.ie would have national, local and perhaps international components

The online capacity for debate and creativity, utilising current and future technological participatory innovations such as Crowd Wise | the new economics foundation and many others will with the aid of established bodies such as Politics.ie look to advance participation at local as well as national level; in direct political debate, but also in voluntarism.

Universal healthcare, universal childcare, universal care for the elderly would be among parties core promises, these already exist among other parties. Taxation as a means to reduce the wealth inequality of the state would be pursued.

Economic priorities would marry with a major overhaul of educational concentration on rapidly advancing areas of technology and their growing potential to decrease wealth gaps nationally and internationally and to eradicate resource shortages. Economics initiatives would be pursued in conjunction with other international parties/bodies in the realisation of operating in global marketplace. Developments such as a universally applied Tobin Tax would be strongly supported among others

These are mostly broad principles on broad issues, aside from question of length of post it is perhaps particularly important to concentrate on principles. We can easily ascertain the lack of principles or pragmatic politics, as it was known, was one of the key contributors to recent travails. Ultimately the work of the likes of Paul Krugman highlight the difficulty in subjugating principles for short term market/electoral gains.
Look forward to hearing any thoughts on P.P.P.I.
 

LeDroit

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Mar 11, 2010
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Firstly, as a former Progressive Democrat, I would encourage you not to use your proposed name. We were called the PDs by everyone and the meaning in the name was lost. Similarly, you'll be called Triple PI and your noble nomenclature will be pointless.

As for your principles, clearly I reject them all as juvenile fantasy combined with unattainable communist goals and a previously failed 'tax em while ye got em' philosophy. Universal everything combined with forced income redistribution sounds good in a Ladybird version of the Communist Manifesto but in practice results in systems with the user of the service thought of last and the service itself therefore being the minimum accepted standard. Look at our Health System. Forced income redistribution results in evasion, avoidance, black market and emigration with a consequent economic stagnation and reduced tax revenues. The people who pay most income tax simply will not wear your philosophy and while you think they have no choice but to give you their money, they do, and therefore your aspirations will fail as all communist states do.

As for your Tobin Tax! It seems your 'solutions' are to try to think of as many taxes as possible.

I don't think you need start a new party. SF and Labour both espouse your ehm, economic philosophy. Just join them.
 

Flynnster

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Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
128
What are the thoughts about the chances of success of a democratic revolution.

Could a movement begin to radically change our political system with the following terms
1. A new Government for a fixed term of 5 years.
2. The Dail Only, no Seanad
3. The Taoiseach and Cabinet elected directly by the electorate, no opposition, no TD's, no senators.
4. The Programme for Government set out in broad terms for the five year term and voted on by the electorate.
5. This may require a vote to reneige on our sovereign debt relating to Anglo Irish. Let those Bond Holders Whistle. We need the money more than them.Use it to redevelope our economy and our competitiveness internationally.
6. Determine to raise taxes so as to build a soceity rather than an economy.
7. Maximise the salaries for Bankers, HSE Consultants, College Lectures, etc to be say 100k, or have some climbing scale of taxes to say 80% for anything above 200k.
8.Elect a president to listen to the people and give him/her power to turf out any of our Cabinet that is not performing or behaving as they should.


The current shower on either side of the Dail are worse than each other, the man in the street is being driven to death to support those on the right side of the deal. How about we all get on the wrong side of the deal for a while, 5 years, reform under a democratic banner . How would one kick start it off. Who would lead it, and get the role of President. A Peter Sutherland figure, Mary Robinson, Ray McSharry or a total unknown, but somebody that can bring reform.
In short the answer to your question is a resounding NO & my reasons for thinking that are basically outlined below:

1. We already have a five year term government.
2. I personally am not convinced abolishing the Seanad is a good idea. Major reform of it and the way senators are elected might be more useful but I am open to both arguments.
3. So who brings your "government" to account? The Media? A few people in the know?
4. Is that not already the case with political party election manifestos?
5. That is your view based on what theory?
6. A society based on what? Perhaps handouts?
7. Why in your view is this necessary? To make smart people suffer for being smart?
8. Who would this president of yours be answerable to & how often?

Our current crop of politicans are terrible however the last time I checked they were all democratically elected by the people of Ireland in what is seen as one of the fairest electoral systems in the world.

The other questions you have in relation to who is to lead this "revolution" is for the founding members of your organisation to figure out but personally I won't hold my breath waiting on this revolution because the simple truth is in spite of all their talk and righteous anger the people of Ireland reject change at every single turn. They say they want "change" & "reform" but truly most of them are happy enough to continue to give out and say how the government screwed them but they will continue to vote for the same local characters time after time. It comes back to medical cards, planning permission & genuine gombeenism.
 

the real athair_siochain

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Messages
281
We need a education revolution. I say this because most of those people who vote do not have a clue of what is going on,

I could not find one TD who did not collect rent or interest, they are all landlords and moneylenders, blinded by greed, they are parasites.
What do they do when they get elected. they make sure policies are enacted , that ensures the price of property and rents keep on going up,,, this is the root cause of the poor state of the economy, the landlords and moneylenders don't have to worry their TD brothers will bail them out if they lose money, if we are to change we need to stop all those greedy landlord and moneylender politicians, bring back hanging
 

Martin75

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Sep 1, 2010
Messages
11
Ledroit. You seem pretty discouraging. I would not have thoughy my remarks were directed as an insult to you and so genuinely am surprised by the tone. I understand that there is an individualisation in problem solving at the moment where the pattern seems to see a necessary disagreement with others prior to providing ones own solutions. Sarcasm and dismissiveness seem the normal tone. This may seem like an appropriately smart option when receiving imaginary applause from fellow bloggers, I do feel that it is, in fact, naive and an unuseful habit. Regarding the social dreams etc element I would certainly argue that the nordic countries provide us a very clear and successful model for redressing tge excessive cold war ideological polarisation of the last century. You will also find thatthat research after.researc illustrates that little income inequality leads to corresponding relative success in a whole range of societal measures. This, I guess, really should not surpris e us as we are a society in most things. What is required to achieve this? Maturity,mosty in the we make
 

Martin75

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LeDroit
Apologies for lack of clarity in end of last post. I believe feasible non-coercive measures which encourage low income inequality are to be sought. What must be remembered here is that there is not a fixed amount of wealth. The world is vastly wealthier now than in the past. Feudal times and the hoarding of meagre resources by the very few become something that one can move further from with ever increasing wealth. 'Wealth' now seems to be on an extremely positive curve, the financial economy requires immensely complex management, of course, however, the assumptions of some of capitalism's focus have been pretty clearly revealed as modes of wealth conservation among an elite. Any serious holistic societal analysis should show that this is not, in fact ideal, for wealth generation.

I think I concur with all of your response Flynnster but maybe we can keep trying bearing in mind the quotation in Aindriu's post; despite al of this Conchuir I feel your enthusiasm and endeavour is to be greatly admired and welcomed
 

Think.Thank

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Messages
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Is it just me or does anybody else realise that we do now live in the 21'st centuary where we can make collective decisions based on smart ideas generated by "The People" and filtered by computer programs.

If you use Google or Yahoo to refine your internet searches?
If you use Sage or Excell to manage your accounts?
If you use Windows or Mac OS to operate your PC or laptop?
If you use Facebook to network your socialising?
All of which that you, the user provide the input to be calculated!

Then why is it you use Brian Cowen and his goonies to run your country???
 

truth or lies

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Messages
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Democratic Revolution

I am new to this forum, though have been reading for a while and decided to join in, not sure of the protocol involved, hopefully I won't offend anyone, certainly don't mean to. So here goes.

Martin75 & Flynnster are both right as far as I can tell, difference being, Fynnnster is much more realistic, Martin75 perhaps younger and an idealist at heart. Flynnster is right about the current Dail and the fact they are just three years into a five year term and we voted for them.

Problem is so many people in Ireland are more interested in 'X Factor' or 'Get Me Out of The Jungle??' whatever, than judical, social or taxation policies of the various political parties. I've canvassed extensively in the past and 95% of people have not got a clue whats going on, therefore any debate's that do occur, take place between the remaining 5% ie: the sort of people who join or read forums like this and miss Questions and Answers on Monday nights.

Its not that people are foolish or unintelligent, they have simply always left politics and policy to the politicians. A little bit like the way they left the eduacation of their children to the church. People accepted immigration as a way of life and the fact that we'd never be an advanced economy like the UK or US, as simple facts of life. We had little in this country and we more or less accepted our lot, at least we were better than the people up the north we were free of the Brits and could always get work in London or New York if need be.

Thats all changed now and their is a generation of people who have tasted champagne in Ireland. I am not just talking about the golden circle here, we all pretty much experienced an economic miracle in the past 15 or so years to varying degrees. Now thanks to awful political and broader economic decisions we're back where we started and worse, but the taste of better times still lingers. We all have the photos of better days, the last of expensive clothes in the wardrobe and the nice new homes. Everywhere people turn see are remnants of their recent past, their nice prosperous, comfortable past.

Problem is past is past and the vast, vast majority of people including those who still have money and who are reasonably well off, let alone those on the breadline do not realise the enormity of our current economic situation and how really, truly bad its going to get. We are flat, stone broke and currently with no prospects for recovery or growth. That people are still living in La La land was amply demonstrated by the fact that in August there was more new BMW 5 Series (340 No.) sold in Ireland than Toyota Yaris's. Even if one could afford one, who would want to be seen driving a 10 reg. 5 series, talk about placing a target on ones back. Lets hope the social unrest doesn't start until some of the Munich polish has worn off. Be a shame to see nice motors being trashed.

Anyhow Martin75 is right we need a new way forward and Flynnster is right for now, but with a little leadership and hope a tipping point could be reached that would change the political and economic landscape in Ireland not seen since the 1920's.

Its a big ask, one of the first big challenge's of any new movement will be to introduce a new constitution, as well as succeeding with many new untried personalities in a smart media age of 24 hour news cycles, blogging and twitter. But the people who could, should and must undertake this task won't do it because its easy, they'll do it because its hard.

The time is almost here for a new generation of heros in the mould of O'Connell, Pearse, Collins and Lemass to step forward and participate in a revolution of their time and discussions like this are contributing to the spark everyday, even if we can't see it ourselves.

So I am with Martin75, his sentiments at least, the finer policy may take a little more teasing out. Question for now, is their anybody else out there?
 


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