Dev and Collins "were never republicans"

Drogheda445

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Professor David Fitzpatrick, a leading historian on the revolutionary period, has made the claim that neither De Valera and Collins weren't true republicans and both sought to capitalise on the republican slogan merely to win support abroad.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/de-valera-collins-never-republicans-west-cork-history-festival-told-1.3171402?mode=amp

He continues by suggesting that the contradictions in ideology among "republican" forces, and the subsequent evolution of the Irish state, both seem to suggest that the Irish nationalist leadership's devotion to an Irish Republic was quite hollow.

Thoughts? Was the incorporation of republicanism into nationalist politics around this time essentially an accident of history?
 


L'Chaim

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A Republican is someone who believes in a system of government where the representatives are elected by the people, and has a constitution, as opposed to a Monarchy, Dictatorship etc. So on that basic Dev and Collins were republicans. He doesn't seem to say what they were, in his opinion
 

Cruimh

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Professor David Fitzpatrick, a leading historian on the revolutionary period, has made the claim that neither De Valera and Collins weren't true republicans and both sought to capitalise on the republican slogan merely to win support abroad.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/de-valera-collins-never-republicans-west-cork-history-festival-told-1.3171402?mode=amp

He continues by suggesting that the contradictions in ideology among "republican" forces, and the subsequent evolution of the Irish state, both seem to suggest that the Irish nationalist leadership's devotion to an Irish Republic was quite hollow.

Thoughts? Was the incorporation of republicanism into nationalist politics around this time essentially an accident of history?
I don't know about Collins, But I know that de Valera clearly stated he wasn't a doctrinaire republican. He believed in self determination and if the Irish People wanted something other than a republic, that was fine with him.
 

stopdoingstuff

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I don't know about Collins, But I know that de Valera clearly stated he wasn't a doctrinaire republican. He believed in self determination and if the Irish People wanted something other than a republic, that was fine with him.
As long as he was in charge.
 

parentheses

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The beginning of the 1918 manifesto-whats ambiguous about that?

GENERAL ELECTION --- MANIFESTO TO THE IRISH PEOPLE

THE coming General Election is fraught with vital possibilities for the future of our nation. Ireland is faced with the question whether this generation wills it that she is to march out into the full sunlight of freedom, or is to remain in the shadow of a base imperialism that has brought and ever will bring in its train naught but evil for our race.

Sinn Féin gives Ireland the opportunity of vindicating her honour and pursuing with renewed confidence the path of national salvation by rallying to the flag of the Irish Republic.

Sinn Féin aims at securing the establishment of that Republic.
 

wombat

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Doesn't contradict the OP's point - which says they stuck to the Republican "ideal" for their own reasons, rather than because they believed in it.
You have to admire mind readers, especially those who can read the minds of the dead.:lol:
 

Henry94.

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They both went out in 1916 and fought for not only for a republic but for the republic as proclaimed there and then. I don't know about Professor David Fitzpatrick but I'd be slow to risk death for a cause I didn't believe in.
 

Dasayev

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Jesus, what kind of ************************e is this?

According to Prof Fitzpatrick, it was an understandable tactic as had de Valera and other Irish nationalist leaders gone to the US Congress and argued “for a casual arrangement for Home Rule with exemption for a number of counties, they would have been laughed out of court”.

Reminds me of the documentary about Rebel Rossa where the relatives had to put up with nonsense that O'Donovan Rossa was a supporter of John Redmond.

It seems to be the narrative now. Nobody was a Republican, and everyone was secretly Redmonite!
 

stopdoingstuff

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Michael Collins was a sell out and was plugged by the RA.

Da Valera was a decent man.
That is debatable on many levels but even if he was Old Nick himself, the fact that he kept us out of the war made up for it and makes him an amazing leader.
 

Windowshopper

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I think a willingness to compromise by Collins or De Valera on the concept of a republic does not not (sorry for the double negative) mean that they were republicans however it shows that it was lower down their priorities than a solution which offered either the substance of national independence or left the path open for others to finish in the future.
 

Fr. Hank Tree

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Seems an awful lot of ************************e is being spoken at this West Cork history festival.
 

Roberto Jordan

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Jesus, what kind of ************************e is this?




Reminds me of the documentary about Rebel Rossa where the relatives had to put up with nonsense that O'Donovan Rossa was a supporter of John Redmond.

It seems to be the narrative now. Nobody was a Republican, and everyone was secretly Redmonite!
A case of taking individuals willingness to compromise and/or bend to the will of the people , face rela politick - while still setting lofty goals and turning it into something more, all packaged into a neat misleading soundbite

All of a piece with the messenger ( hard to tell if it was the IT or the speaker and scene of the message ( history festival in a big house in west cork loaded with the usual suspects of "revisionism" ( or mainstream academic / polite society narrative on the WoI throughout my lifetime)

Given they covered the "militant republicans were unsupported genocidal thugs" and " De poor auld protestants" this year , along with " 4 glorious years "( or the pointless hell of WW1 the rest of us) , one wonders what they could cover next year.......given the setting perhaps a reconsideration of the merits of Charles trevelayn and an ethnographic study of the locals around Skibb choosing of their own free will to go for a low-carb diet in the 1840's
 

Dame_Enda

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Collins was a soft-republican. The underlying issue was self-determination. Dev was a Republican as shown by his dismantling of the main tenets of the Treaty in 1937. But I dont accept Collins was not a Republican because he was in the IRB as early as 1913, and joined the London GAA while working as a messenger at a London firm of stockbrokers.
 
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PO'Neill

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Michael Collins was a sell out and was plugged by the RA.

Da Valera was a decent man.
Another sock puppet for my Ignore list :)
 

Fr. Hank Tree

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You have to admire mind readers, especially those who can read the minds of the dead.:lol:
The burden of proof is on de Valera to prove he wasn't thinking what Fitzpatrick asserts without proof he was thinking.

Perfectly reasonable.
 


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