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Developers can flee but 'will not escape'

Barnacle

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Sep 15, 2009
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854
When being questioned at an Oireachtas Committee, Brian Lenihan confirmed that he is powerless is stopping developers moving to foreign shores. Whilst freedom of movement is a fundamental right, these developers are using more lenient Bankruptcy Laws to protect their assets. For example, Pension Pots are protected under Bankruptcy Laws in the UK and to avail of their laws you only need to be Domicile in that country.

FINANCE Minister Brian Lenihan yesterday admitted he was powerless to stop indebted developers and bankers from upping sticks and starting new lives abroad.
Developers can flee but 'will not escape' - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie


No idea what the rules are in other countries but given that many developers and others, e.g. David Drumm have built up substantial pension pots, we may never access them. Drumm also has moved to Massachusetts who have a spefic law applicable to the state where a homestead is protected against creditors. Nice protection for a $4.6m house.

According to Massachusetts state law, such a declaration technically protects the homeowner from creditors' efforts to recover debts in the event of a forced sale. This type of declaration is a standard legal procedure in Massachusetts.
Ex-Anglo chief Drumm's application shows he's bound for US - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie

Now I know that most of these would prefer to be living their lives in the lap of luxury here in the manner that they were used to but this really is sickening. These pension pots were built up from Company Money, pre tax so zero tax was paid when funding the pension and the funds that they grew in are exempt from tax but we are now being refused access to the capital and we are also being refused access to the tax charge on the benefits as these will be taxed in the country of receipt.
 
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Harmonica

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The minister stressed, however, that "every step possible under our law" was being taken to recover moneys owed to Irish banks and bring rule-breakers to justice, regardless of where they were now residing.
Give me a break. They haven't even finished the investigation of Anglo Irish let alone started to put together a potential prosecution case. There is no chance they will even look at individuals.

:rolleyes:
 

stanley

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Lenny is now making it up as he goes along, he/they should have got tough with Drumm ages ago and got an extradition order on him from the US, they would have no problems sending his slimy ass back as they are proactive on bank fraud.

If they cant get Drumm back what chance have they with cute hoor connected developers like Ronan and McNamara who know every move coming their way.
 

typical

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Jul 8, 2010
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If they bought criminal charges against these people (accounting fraud etc.) then we should be able to freeze their ill gotten assets, no?
 

Anorakphobia

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Apr 13, 2007
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Joan Burton quizzed Lenihan yesterday about the number of developers who are laughing at us, still living the high life with no intention of ever repayinga centa nd most probably have long got their money somewhere where this Government will never retrieve it (and that's on the assumption there is actually any real will on their part to chase it).

Lenihan's answer was disgusting.
Armed with that chilling FF smirk he told Burton to report all of this to the gardai.
Lenihan is one of the most comfortable liars I have ever seen operate.
His answer to Burton was like classic mafiosa
"Hey you got a problem with all this, maybe you should go to the cops, these guys are legitimate buisnessmen operating within the law"

To hell with the labyrinthian loopholes the Government and the legal adviors to NAMA deliberately created to allow these guys flee with the cash.

Look at the bill for Anglo and it's clear as mud the amount forecast to be recovered from developers after their assets are sold is pretty much zero.
Why doesnt Lenihan tell the public what he and his advisors know, these guys will never repay a red cent to us.

Finally note what Lenihan consistently says.
"We intend to aggressively pursue these developers"
Note he does not say "we will reccover every asset they own and any attempt to hide or transfer that asset will be resisted by us using every power the State has and if that isn't successful we will bring in new legislation to do so"

In the aftermath of Veronica Guerin's murder, a series of exceptional powers were granted that allowed suspected criminals be pursued and have their assets seized.
It's time for something similar, there are billions at stake here and if these lads flee with it, hide it or transfer it to a family member then us mugs have to pay for them.
 
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jpc

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Lenny needs the same type of reality check that Biffo got from the Public given the smarmy glib nonsense he spews on a continual basis.
 

DCon

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May 5, 2009
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Joan Burton quizzed Lenihan yesterday about the number of developers who are laughing at us, still living the high life with no intention of ever repayinga centa nd most probably have long got their money somewhere where this Government will never retrieve it (and that's on the assumption there is actually any real will on their part to chase it).

Lenihan's answer was disgusting.
Armed with that chilling FF smirk he told Burton to report all of this to the gardai.
Lenihan is one of the most comfortable liars I have ever seen operate.
His answer to Burton was like classic mafiosa
"Hey you got a problem with all this, maybe you should go to the cops, these guys are legitimate buisnessmen operating within the law"

To hell with the labyrinthian loopholes the Government and the legal adviors to NAMA deliberately created to allow these guys flee with the cash.

Look at the bill for Anglo and it's clear as mud the amount forecast to be recovered from developers after their assets are sold is pretty much zero.
Why doesnt Lenihan tell the public what he and his advisors know, these guys will never repay a red cent to us.

Finally note what Lenihan consistently says.
"We intend to aggressively pursue these developers"
Note he does not say "we will reccover every asset they own and any attempt to hide or transfer that asset will be resisted by us using every power the State has and if that isn't successful we will bring in new legislation to do so"

In the aftermath of Veronica Guerin's murder, a series of exceptional powers were granted that allowed suspected criminals be pursued and have their assets seized.
It's time for something similar, there are billions at stake here and if these lads flee with it, hide it or transfer it to a family member then us mugs have to pay for them.
Burton should have said.

"All the evidence is within Anglo, and could be with the Department of Finance. I trust as soon as you have it, you will be reporting to the police. If you are unwilling to do so, for any reason, please share the evidence with me and I will do so."
 

Libero

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It's worse than that, Anorakphobia: it's widely anticipated in Dublin professional circles that NAMA will make a show of going after the personal guarantees of a small handful of developers.

This isn't expected to be a rigorous exercise, and will probably end up with NAMA obtaining judgments against some debtors, with the Agency then concluding it's not worth the expense presenting petitions for bankruptcy.

It serves a purpose for NAMA in that it at least encourages NAMA debtors to go through the motions of working with the agency and filing business plans.

And of course the optics are useful. Lenihan will be even smoother denying that NAMA is a soft touch for developers when he can make reference to "enforcement actions" and "civil judgments". One can already imagine his choice of words, complete with that inflection he uses when he reacts to the suggestion of wrongdoing in an incredulous and slightly disappointed way.

(He'll be found out in the end, of course, as the NAMA aggregate cash flows are publicised, and the public sees supposedly bust developers living lives of luxury. But Lenihan is smart enought to know he doesn't have to deny reality permanently, just long enough to get done what he wants to get done.)
 

Oldira1

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Oct 2, 2008
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It's worse than that, Anorakphobia: it's widely anticipated in Dublin professional circles that NAMA will make a show of going after the personal guarantees of a small handful of developers.

This isn't expected to be a rigorous exercise, and will probably end up with NAMA obtaining judgments against some debtors, with the Agency then concluding it's not worth the expense presenting petitions for bankruptcy.

It serves a purpose for NAMA in that it at least encourages NAMA debtors to go through the motions of working with the agency and filing business plans.

And of course the optics are useful. Lenihan will be even smoother denying that NAMA is a soft touch for developers when he can make reference to "enforcement actions" and "civil judgments". One can already imagine his choice of words, complete with that inflection he uses when he reacts to the suggestion of wrongdoing in an incredulous and slightly disappointed way.

(He'll be found out in the end, of course, as the NAMA aggregate cash flows are publicised, and the public sees supposedly bust developers living lives of luxury. But Lenihan is smart enought to know he doesn't have to deny reality permanently, just long enough to get done what he wants to get done.)

Spot on. Look who is chair of NAMA? A very very dodgy character. Listen to his guff...'if you work with us we will work with you'. Hardly the voice of a man about to bankrupt anyone. NAMA is going after a few small fry with sums totalling €300 million while the big fish shag models bathe in caviar.
 

anewbeginning

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Jan 20, 2009
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As long as FF are in office we can be sure these developers will live the high life.

Hence the great big bear hug for Bertie any time he is near one. A developer's best friend.

Whenever they feel the heat, the just lift the phone to friends in government and suddenly things cool off again. All those "donations/brown envelopes" were a good investment.
 

Samell

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Jun 6, 2010
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Hopefully after a GE, CAB will be assisting NAMA and start to move a lot faster than is happening now. FF are just obstructing, justice and recovery they need to go.
 

DeputyEdo

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Aug 9, 2010
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I wonder, since these developers etc owe the money to the tax payers, could I or you or some individual citizen of Ireland try to get these feckers extradited back here to face charges.
 

olamp

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Mar 24, 2010
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Do you or anybody else, know (after 2 years!!) where one can find out where the debt amounts "written off" by Anglo Irish (both before and after the Govt. "takeover") can be found?

I would suggest the details to be under following headings:-

Anglo Irish Bank Directors + wives ?
Politicians + wives ?
Senior staff + wives?
Known 'friends and associates' + wives ?
Sundry amounts over €100,000

Also details of all payments and amounts transferred to "Austrian Banks" referred to in your message ?
 

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