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Developments still be named appallingly

DJP

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We all know that our cities and towns in Ireland have many street and placenames called after English monarchs etc.

A discussion on the issue may belong in the History section, unless something is planned to be done on the issue wherby it would belong in e.g the Current Affairs Section.

A law came in a couple of years ago giving County and City Councils the right to veto inappropiate names for developments. Fingal County Council have lead the way on this in Dublin by introducing three 'naming committees' compromising councillors, historians and other representatives to name developments properly. However, the first naming committe introuduced was in Galway City Council, I believe.

I think that Donegal County Council and Shannon Town Council have similar committees.

I noticed this development in The Irish Times yesterday though. Does anyone know does the name relate to the Duke of Wellington?

I know in Cork there was a campaign a few years ago to rename some street called 'Victoria' something, as people thought it was named after a former English Queen. It turned out though, the development was named by some guy after his daughter called Victoria.

Does anyone have any light to shed on Wellington Court? I will be rining the Heritage Officer of Dublin City Council on Monday about it if not.

Wellington Court


 


Seamus

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Id say this would be another reason why loyalists would feel hostility from the south if it happened now.

Id suggest that the names of such streets etc should be commonly referred to in the irish language and that way everyone is happy.

Whatever changing should have been done when the freestate was formed though.
 

DJP

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A motion was put down by Dermot Lacey, a Labour councillor in Dublin, a while back in relation to the possiblity of a having a policy of naming all developments in City Council in Irish like is the case in Galway City Council and Shannon Town Council.

The Heritage Officer issued a report saying that:

"Use of Names in Irish

Gael-Taca has proposed that all new names should be exclusively in the Irish language. This approach certainly has merits in certain parts of Ireland particularly those with active Gaeltact areas and other supporting policies for the protection and promotion of the Irish language.

It should however be noted that the context within Dublin City is unique regarding existing names and historic associations. The influence of many cultures, both native and otherwise is intertwined with the street names and place names that enrich the heritage of the capital. They evoke and reflect the very many influences that Dublin City has endured and welcomed, from invaders to traders and visitors.

The polices persued by Dublin City Council attempt to regulate what was often an ad hoc approach leading to a number of very unfortunate names which bore no relation the locality.

The naming of developments exclusively in Irish has been considered from time to time when appropriate. One such example was approved in Rathmines for a development along the Canal where the proposal was for ‘Cois Eala’ (roughly translated as Swan Side)."

Gael-Taca didn't actually propose that all developments be exclusively be in the Irish language. We proposed that where possible they be so.

Either way, if City Council- like all Councils in the country- are serious about naming developments properly they should have naming committees.
 

Conor

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Darren Mac an Phríora said:
Gael-Taca didn't actually propose that all developments be exclusively be in the Irish language. We proposed that where possible they be so.
Where would it be impossible for a new development to be named in Irish?
 

DJP

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Dublin is actually the one county in Ireland that you will find that it would be occassionely-as opposed to rarely- difficult to do so. Dublin doesn't have as many of the geographical features that other counties have ie. it is mostly flat with only a couple of rivers.

Historically, is where a lot of the problems lie ie. a lot of our native Irish history was destroyed by the Normans and the English and by, more recently, Irish people themselves. Developments have to relate to the history, typography or geography of areas since that law came in that I mentioned above. The law has made a good impact but some developments are still be named awfully.

However, I agree that most of the time developments could be named in Irish in Dublin if the creativity was there. For example, lets take Wellington Court. Lets say, that Wellington in this case (and I hope its not the Duke of Wellington) was some old decent landlord bloke and it was thought appropiate to name the development after him. There is no reason why the development could not be called 'Cúirt Wellington'.

Council officials do not have the resources to name developments. The most they can do is reject names. It is tough work coming up with names that relate to the history of areas often. Thats why the committees are essential and that is why some councils now have them.
 

Conor

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Is that a "never" (or "nowhere")?
 

smiffy

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Darren Mac an Phríora said:
Historically, is where a lot of the problems lie ie. a lot of our native Irish history was destroyed by the Normans and the English and by, more recently, Irish people themselves
Hang on - what do you mean 'our native Irish history'? If you talk about it being destroyed by the Normans, doesn't that imply that those who are descended from the Normans are somehow less 'Irish' than others?

There is no reason why the development could not be called 'Cúirt Wellington'.
There's something of a contradiction here. You seem to be suggesting that the names of developments should be meaningful in some way. Okay, fair enough I suppose (I'm not sure why that's important, but I'll accept it for the sake of argument). You also don't seem to have a problem with a development being named after this 'Wellington' whoever he is. Again, okay. But surely it's more meaningful to have developments named in the language that the vast majority of people speak, than it is to name it in something that, at best, is a second language and more generally isn't their language at all.

The 'Cois Eala' example is typical: for most people in Rathmines, it's completely meaningless, certainly compared to 'Swan Side'.

At least if you argued that developments should be named in Irish in order to give a boost to the Irish language, there'd be some kind of consistency. But it's rather disingenuous to propose using a minority language as if it's for the benefit of all.
 

DJP

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Darren Mac an Phríora said:
Historically, is where a lot of the problems lie ie. a lot of our native Irish history was destroyed by the Normans and the English and by, more recently, Irish people themselves
smiffy said:
Hang on - what do you mean 'our native Irish history'? If you talk about it being destroyed by the Normans, doesn't that imply that those who are descended from the Normans are somehow less 'Irish' than others?
Native- in the sense of the Irish people who lived here before we were invaded. My name Mac an Phríora is the gaelicisation of Prior, which is a Norman name.

There is no reason why the development could not be called 'Cúirt Wellington'.
smiffy said:
There's something of a contradiction here. You seem to be suggesting that the names of developments should be meaningful in some way. Okay, fair enough I suppose (I'm not sure why that's important, but I'll accept it for the sake of argument).


Yea, ok :roll:

smiffy said:
You also don't seem to have a problem with a development being named after this 'Wellington' whoever he is.
I certainly do- as I said- if its named after the Duke of Wellington!!

smiffy said:
But surely it's more meaningful to have developments named in the language that the vast majority of people speak, than it is to name it in something that, at best, is a second language and more generally isn't their language at all.

The 'Cois Eala' example is typical: for most people in Rathmines, it's completely meaningless, certainly compared to 'Swan Side'.

At least if you argued that developments should be named in Irish in order to give a boost to the Irish language, there'd be some kind of consistency. But it's rather disingenuous to propose using a minority language as if it's for the benefit of all.
Well it won't unbenefit anyone. It benefits the language and Irish speakers who are proud of their language, as well as other people who are interested in culture.
 

Conor

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Darren Mac an Phríora said:
What do you mean?
What I mean is, are you saying that anywhere can be named in Irish? That's really what it sounds like.
 

White Horse

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Darren Mac an Phríora said:
We all know that our cities and towns in Ireland have many street and placenames called after English monarchs etc.
A large part of our past and heritage is British. Why shouldn't place-names reflect that?
 

Conor

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Darren Mac an Phríora said:
I certainly do- as I said- if its named after the Duke of Wellington!!
What if it's named after an adjoining street?


Darren Mac an Phríora said:
Well it won't unbenefit anyone. It benefits the language and Irish speakers who are proud of their language, as well as other people who are interested in culture.
It'll certainly unbenefit people who have to spell it, or try and explain where you live to someone in Four Star Pizza (a Mass Immigrant, most likely).
 

smiffy

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Darren Mac an Phríora said:
Native- in the sense of the Irish people who lived here before we were invaded. My name Mac an Phríora is the gaelicisation of Prior, which is a Norman name.
Oh, I get the 'native'. It's the whole 'we' and 'our' thing that I'm confused on. If you're descended, at least in part, from Normans, why do you consider the pre-Norman Irish to be 'we'? Why not say, for example, the people who lived here before we invaded?

Frankly, I think the latter is rather absurd, but no more absurd that your own use of 'we'.

smiffy said:
But surely it's more meaningful to have developments named in the language that the vast majority of people speak, than it is to name it in something that, at best, is a second language and more generally isn't their language at all.
Well it won't unbenefit anyone. It benefits the language and Irish speakers who are proud of their language, as well as other people who are interested in culture.
So why talk about having meaningful names at all? If you think people benefit from developments having meaningful names (as you implied earlier), then why not have them meaningful to as many people as possible (i.e. in the language that most people understand). Unless you don't really care about whether they're meaningful at all, and are just using that as a way of pretending that promotion of a minority interest benefits more than a small coterie of your chums.

Of course, I can see from your use of the word 'unbenefit' you might have a little trouble with the native language of the Irish people (can you guess what I'm going to argue it is?).
 

DJP

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Conor said:
Darren Mac an Phríora said:
What do you mean?
What I mean is, are you saying that anywhere can be named in Irish? That's really what it sounds like.
In most circumstances, developments can be named in Irish yes ie. it would be possible to come up with an Irish name. In some cases it wouldn't or an English/bilingual name would be more appropiate.
 

DJP

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White Horse said:
[quote="Darren Mac an Phríora":3qn1dr8c]We all know that our cities and towns in Ireland have many street and placenames called after English monarchs etc.
A large part of our past and heritage is British. Why shouldn't place-names reflect that?[/quote:3qn1dr8c]

I've no problem with developments being called after British people, providing they weren't part of the British war/imperial appartus.
 

White Horse

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Darren Mac an Phríora said:
I've no problem with developments being called after British people, providing they weren't part of the British war/imperial appartus.
I have to admit the whole war thing is not my cup of tea. However, the Irish were an instrisic part of the "British war machine". It is part of who we were, whether we like it or not.
 

Conor

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Darren Mac an Phríora said:
In most circumstances, developments can be named in Irish yes ie. it would be possible to come up with an Irish name. In some cases it wouldn't or an English/bilingual name would be more appropiate.
Again, when would it not be possible to come up with an Irish name?
 

DJP

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smiffy said:
Frankly, I think the latter is rather absurd, but no more absurd that your own use of 'we'.
The reality is that most people either don't care if a development is named in Irish, or think that it is good. Hardly anybody complains, except some extremists on websites such as these.
 

DJP

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Conor said:
Darren Mac an Phríora said:
In most circumstances, developments can be named in Irish yes ie. it would be possible to come up with an Irish name. In some cases it wouldn't or an English/bilingual name would be more appropiate.
Again, when would it not be possible to come up with an Irish name?
Is many cases (particularly in county Dublin) its more appropiate to name developments in English with an Irish translation.
 

Conor

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Darren Mac an Phríora said:
The reality is that most people either don't care if a development is named in Irish, or think that it is good. Hardly anybody complains, except some extremists on websites such as these.
If that's the case, then it shouldn't be necessary for the Council to intervene at all.
 


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