Did outsourcing of cancer testing sentence a woman with cervical cancer to death?

Noble Guardian

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Orbit v2

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Good point. Ciara Kelly got some terrible abuse online. Same goes for the various ministers for health down the years. I heard Vicky Phelan saying how she thought twice about attending a function because Mary Harney would be at it, and might have to shake her hand. I thought that was quite mean spirited.
 

ruman

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Good point. Ciara Kelly got some terrible abuse online. Same goes for the various ministers for health down the years. I heard Vicky Phelan saying how she thought twice about attending a function because Mary Harney would be at it, and might have to shake her hand. I thought that was quite mean spirited.
Why ? Harney outsourced test reading to the US. Wouldnt it be a act of astonishing hypocrisy to shake her hand?

If you see poor performance you have a duty to point it out. Failing to do so is simply enabling mediocrity and preventing standards improving.

Ministers should in fact welcome those who point out failings in the health seevice. Any top class organisation welcomes criticsm sadly the HSE appears more interest in concealing failings than improving.

In fairness there were a number of medics who raised concerns about outsourcing at the time such as Dr David Gibbons. People like that deserve credit, not those who simply followed " orders" and paused letters.

Holohan of course wanted to perform an internal review ! How that chap wasnt removed after Scallys verdict on Voluntary Disclosure is astonishing really.
 

Orbit v2

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Why ? Harney outsourced test reading to the US. Wouldnt it be a act of astonishing hypocrisy to shake her hand?
Why would it be astonishing hypocrisy? What exactly is the problem with Harney having outsourced the test reading to the US, given that she didn't have a crystal ball in her possession? You'd swear the US was the 3rd world.
 

redmonite

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Why ? Harney outsourced test reading to the US. Wouldnt it be a act of astonishing hypocrisy to shake her hand?

If you see poor performance you have a duty to point it out. Failing to do so is simply enabling mediocrity and preventing standards improving.

Ministers should in fact welcome those who point out failings in the health seevice. Any top class organisation welcomes criticsm sadly the HSE appears more interest in concealing failings than improving.

In fairness there were a number of medics who raised concerns about outsourcing at the time such as Dr David Gibbons. People like that deserve credit, not those who simply followed " orders" and paused letters.

Holohan of course wanted to perform an internal review ! How that chap wasnt removed after Scallys verdict on Voluntary Disclosure is astonishing really.
Mary Harney outsourced reading of the slides. Yet again can
I point out there is no evidence that the screening accuracy was outside international norms. If evidence emerges to the contrary
I will change my mind.... but I'm still waiting!
 

ruman

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Why would it be astonishing hypocrisy? What exactly is the problem with Harney having outsourced the test reading to the US, given that she didn't have a crystal ball in her possession? You'd swear the US was the 3rd world.
Ask Dr Gibbons or indeed Sam Coulter Smith the former master of the Rotunda who warned about outsourcing a decade ago.
 

Noble Guardian

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Ask Dr Gibbons or indeed Sam Coulter Smith the former master of the Rotunda who warned about outsourcing a decade ago.
Just because they had concerns doesn't mean they were right. So far the decision has been vindicated.
 

ruman

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Mary Harney outsourced reading of the slides. Yet again can
I point out there is no evidence that the screening accuracy was outside international norms. If evidence emerges to the contrary
I will change my mind.... but I'm still waiting!
Simply providing the reason offered for not wiahing to shake Harneys hand. Harney wouldnt be the most popular health minister amongst the medical profession so it was an odd post in any case.
 

Orbit v2

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Simply providing the reason offered for not wiahing to shake Harneys hand. Harney wouldnt be the most popular health minister amongst the medical profession so it was an odd post in any case.
I can understand Vicky Phelan not wanting to shake certain people's hands. But, it's the kind of sentiment that is better kept to oneself imo. Though Harney not being popular among the medical profession ought to be a good point in your book, no?
 

buttercookie

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Tony O Brien said smears were being examined at kitchen tables before the decision was taken to send slides to the States.

I dont know about anyone else but I think you would be safer having slides examined by someone who examines hundreds of these rather than someone examining a few every so often. I for example would insist on going to a big teaching hospital if I had cancer rather than the local hospital which might see a few cases a year of a particular cancer so the expertise isnt there, the same follows for checking cervical cancer slides and mammogrammes and tests for bowel cancer.

I thought you are maintaining Ruman that we have a Third world healthcare system, in that scenario why wouldnt you approve of slides going to where there is a competent system. Why do you think testing those slides would be safer in Ireland than in the States. I think we can all agree now that the margin of error was no higher for Irish slides examined in the States than it was for slides examined under other schemes.

It was very petty to publicly state that you wouldnt want to shake someones hand, really junior infant playground stuff. Mary Harney is long gone from public life and she would have made the decision to send the slides to be examined in conjunction with very senior Department of Health personnel who would have guided her.
 

redmonite

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Ask Dr Gibbons or indeed Sam Coulter Smith the former master of the Rotunda who warned about outsourcing a decade ago.
Again Ruman there is no evidence that the outsourcing was in any way worse than if had been left in-house with the HSE.
 

buttercookie

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The medical professionals including Leo Vradkar allowed false information and scare mongering to take place in a highly emotive environment where many people believed women had cancer and Doctors hid it from them.

In this insanity I believe inevitably a huge award was made and it should have been appealed. It has set a precedent now for solicitors to circle other screening programmes as its certainly lucrative to take cases against them. How much of the seven million awarded to one person would her solicitors get.
 

ruman

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The medical professionals including Leo Vradkar allowed false information and scare mongering to take place in a highly emotive environment where many people believed women had cancer and Doctors hid it from them.

In this insanity I believe inevitably a huge award was made and it should have been appealed. It has set a precedent now for solicitors to circle other screening programmes as its certainly lucrative to take cases against them. How much of the seven million awarded to one person would her solicitors get.
None. The legal costs and medical expert report costs are on top of that figure.
Medical negligence is a goldmine for the medical and legal professions hence the strength of their opposition to mandatory disclosure !

The medics deny all errors meaning the case takes years ramping up legal fees and medical expert report costs. Its a license to print money and additionally the length of time means the chances of a subsequent medical council action against a medic are minimal.

You seriously think they're going to let you take that off them? Best of luck 😁
 
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midlander12

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Tony O Brien said smears were being examined at kitchen tables before the decision was taken to send slides to the States.

I dont know about anyone else but I think you would be safer having slides examined by someone who examines hundreds of these rather than someone examining a few every so often. I for example would insist on going to a big teaching hospital if I had cancer rather than the local hospital which might see a few cases a year of a particular cancer so the expertise isnt there, the same follows for checking cervical cancer slides and mammogrammes and tests for bowel cancer.

I thought you are maintaining Ruman that we have a Third world healthcare system, in that scenario why wouldnt you approve of slides going to where there is a competent system. Why do you think testing those slides would be safer in Ireland than in the States. I think we can all agree now that the margin of error was no higher for Irish slides examined in the States than it was for slides examined under other schemes.

It was very petty to publicly state that you wouldnt want to shake someones hand, really junior infant playground stuff. Mary Harney is long gone from public life and she would have made the decision to send the slides to be examined in conjunction with very senior Department of Health personnel who would have guided her.
Yes of all the red herrings in this whole controversy the outsourcing was the biggest of all. I remember at the time of the original controversy I heard one single interview with a female medical journalist who outlined the rate of 'false negatives' in cervical screening plus the fact that it was a surveillance rather than a diagnostic. The interview, which I never heard anyone commenting on at the time, was in stark contrast to the inaccurate, emotive pap that dominated the media coverage at the time, though her views would now be common cause nowadays. The whole fiction of 'undiagnosed cancers' and 'misdiagnoses being concealed from the patients' was whipped up by our craw-thumping and spineless political class, of which Mary Lou McD and above all the wretched Alan Kelly deserve a special mention.
 

ruman

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Good to see the media finally starting to look at the role of the medics.


While joe public might bring one or 2 cases the same medics have large numbers of cases on the go year after year. Along with the legal profession they have created an extremely lucrative industry for themselves.

We must ignore these vested interest groups opposition and bring in mandatory disclosure to put a stop to their gravy train.
 

buttercookie

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How will bringing in mandatory disclosure affect personal injuries claims resulting from rear ending car crashes.

How many other European countries have a policy of informing patients when scans are re examined after cancer is diagnosed.

Is this not the main issue with the cervical cancer controversy but yet if the policy in other countries is not to disclose audited results then Ireland is not the outlier here.

Its facts like this that are lacking in the media coverage of the cervicalcheck scandal and because senior medics failed to step forward with the full information the whole thing was sensationalised until very few people had any grasp of the issues. I dont like Ciara Kellys radio show but she was one of the only GPS who was brave enough to state the facts but her voice was drowned out.
 

redmonite

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How will bringing in mandatory disclosure affect personal injuries claims resulting from rear ending car crashes.

How many other European countries have a policy of informing patients when scans are re examined after cancer is diagnosed.

Is this not the main issue with the cervical cancer controversy but yet if the policy in other countries is not to disclose audited results then Ireland is not the outlier here.

Its facts like this that are lacking in the media coverage of the cervicalcheck scandal and because senior medics failed to step forward with the full information the whole thing was sensationalised until very few people had any grasp of the issues. I dont like Ciara Kellys radio show but she was one of the only GPS who was brave enough to state the facts but her voice was drowned out.
In the UK as far as I know when audits on screening programmes are done the samples are anonymised. Ie " patient' s vital information " is not shared with them.
 

redmonite

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How will bringing in mandatory disclosure affect personal injuries claims resulting from rear ending car crashes.

How many other European countries have a policy of informing patients when scans are re examined after cancer is diagnosed.

Is this not the main issue with the cervical cancer controversy but yet if the policy in other countries is not to disclose audited results then Ireland is not the outlier here.

Its facts like this that are lacking in the media coverage of the cervicalcheck scandal and because senior medics failed to step forward with the full information the whole thing was sensationalised until very few people had any grasp of the issues. I dont like Ciara Kellys radio show but she was one of the only GPS who was brave enough to state the facts but her voice was drowned out.
I think the people sensationalising the story knew full well what the facts were , but it was far better for ratings to press the outrage button.
 

ruman

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How will bringing in mandatory disclosure affect personal injuries claims resulting from rear ending car crashes.

How many other European countries have a policy of informing patients when scans are re examined after cancer is diagnosed.

Is this not the main issue with the cervical cancer controversy but yet if the policy in other countries is not to disclose audited results then Ireland is not the outlier here.

Its facts like this that are lacking in the media coverage of the cervicalcheck scandal and because senior medics failed to step forward with the full information the whole thing was sensationalised until very few people had any grasp of the issues. I dont like Ciara Kellys radio show but she was one of the only GPS who was brave enough to state the facts but her voice was drowned out.
My own data is my own and i have full access to it. No medic has a right to conceal it from me.

No other industry is allowed hold private information about people without their consent. The medical profession has a stone age attitude to data , its surprising legal challenges havent been made as yet however its only a matter of time.

Immediate and real time access to all medical data is the future. I should be allowed have any medic of my choosing review my medical data or indeed review myself. In the future there will be software to review it. Already one can have international experts often in the US review data rather than risk mistakes by Irish ones.

Obviously there is a financial benefit accruing to medics and as such they wish to restrict access to data. As in other industries the financial rewards for the very best will be enormous but your bog standard Irish connsultant will lose out given they provide little value. Those who benefit from the current system will of course attempt to block reform.
 
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buttercookie

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And can any medic who doesnt want to deal with you be allowed to decline your custom.

I dont know what use medical data would be to you unless you are a medic yourself. You would have to bring it to a medic to explain terminology to you and seeing as you think all Irish medics are untrustworthy charlatans you will have to take your files on a Ryanair flight to wherever to find a foreign medic to explain your files to you.

Also arent you cribbing on about cervicalchecks being sent to shoddy third rate clinics in the States to save money rather than having expert Irish staff reviewing them here,or am I mixing you up with someone else. Now seemingly all the international experts are in the US while the Irish ones are useless. Which is it.

You still havent explained what voluntary disclosure has to do with persnal injury claims arising from car accidents.
 


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