• It has come to our attention that some users may have been "banned" when they tried to change their passwords after the site was hacked due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software. This would have occurred around the end of February and does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you believe you were affected by this, please contact a staff member or use the Contact us link at the bottom of any forum page.

Did outsourcing of cancer testing sentence a woman with cervical cancer to death?


galteeman

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
2,343
Indeed Leo being very liberal with tax payers money considering many of the audits and decisions were made when he was just moving on from Health on his relentless campaignforleo...probably wasn't too interested in the petty details of healthcare by then
What evidence do you have that Leo has any input into the amount of money awarded to individuals? Do you think he told them to give her a huge amount of money to shut her up and keep the public happy? Don't you think that if he tried to pull something like that it would have leaked and he would be in big trouble?
As to the liberal use of taxpayers money this is speculation as nobody knows the full facts of Emma Mhic Mhathúna's case. How does anyone know that her screens weren't especially negligent beyond the normal rates of error? and didn't she have 2 screens misread?
It's hard to draw conclusions about her large award without those kind of details.
Isn't the enquiry into the individual cases going to give some more answers?
You are right about the legal fees though if they are 700k for the state then that is crazy.
 

galteeman

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
2,343
There is zero chance of that cartel being broken up, the only one who attempted change was Shatter and we saw what a few well placed leaks to willing hacks did to him.
Yes looks like they won't be taken on. Thing is that FF have Jim O'Callaghan in shadow Justice and the message is loud and clear
"you have nothing to fear from us boys as I am one of your own too".
I think there is a big appetite among the public to have this cartel taken down and no political party seems interested. There is an opportunity there for SF but they don't appear to see it.
 

buttercookie

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 30, 2017
Messages
968
As if it wasnt enough that some politicans and media were egging on the hysteria our esteemed President got involved too and invited Emma Mc Mathina to tea at the Aras.
She got non stop publicity and no one had the gus to say wait for the tesults of the enquiry to find out if there was a problem with the testing.
There was no problem so the two awards should now be teviewed. You cant give one person seven million and then tell someone equally affected, sorry, the State has no lisbility because cervicalcheck did what it was set up to do and smear testing is an unreliable tool.
We have such ifiots for politicans and the two people who understood whete the hysteria was leading were left teally with no choice but to resign.
 

ruman

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 24, 2015
Messages
2,813
Scally absolutely scathing on the voluntary open disclosure. Serious questions for Leo and CMO Tony Holohan to answer now given their decision to make it voluntary.

“The HSE’s open disclosure policy and HSE/SCA guidelines should be revised as a matter of urgency. The revised policies must reflect the primacy of the right of patients to have full knowledge about their healthcare as and when they so wish and, in particular, their right to be informed about any failings in that care process, however and whenever they may arise”

Former HSE DG Tony O'brien of course made a retirement video clapping himself on the back for introducing this dogs dinner.
 

buttercookie

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 30, 2017
Messages
968
And where are the consultants going to get the time to sit down and go through every bit of Maggies treatment with her. Are they meant to find a room somewhere to sit down with people while another patient is in serious danger of kicking the bucket.
I think Scally needs a reality check and needs to spend a couple of nights in Beaumonts A and E department. He will see consultants, Doctors and nurses running from one smoking obese patient to the other. The staff are completely burned out and chock and block with paper already and now Doctors and Consultants are supposed to have time to stand beside not beds, but trollies explaining to people what each and every bit of health care provided means.
 

ruman

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 24, 2015
Messages
2,813
Tony O'Brien in his retirement video may 2018 :

“While we still have quite a way to go, there has been considerable progress in important areas such as for example the establishment of the National Women and Infants’ Health Programme; the e-health and electronic health records programme; the development of a long-awaited new architecture for ICT and logistics, the introduction of the Open Disclosure Policy and how we respond today in comparison to the past when things go wrong.

Dr Gabriel Scally :
“The HSE’s open disclosure policy and HSE/SCA guidelines should be revised as a matter of urgency. The revised policies must reflect the primacy of the right of patients to have full knowledge about their healthcare as and when they so wish and, in particular, their right to be informed about any failings in that care process, however and whenever they may arise”


How much were we paying O'brien again ?
 

buttercookie

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 30, 2017
Messages
968
Neither Tony O Brien or Doctor Graiine Flannelly should have resigned over this but no one wanted to calm down and listen long enough to hear what they had to say. You cant compete with twitter nonsense and this is what politics is in this country now.
Leo in particular should have known the limits of cancer screening and stood behind Doctor Flanelly. In losing her we have lost a dedicated expert in cervicalcancer and Irish women need people of her calibre. She was hung out to dry.
Leo has committed ten million of our taxpayers money to two people but Leo and Fine Gael arent affected by public waiting lists, they probably all have private health insurance so are seen immediately.

Doctor Scally had nothing else to do but listen to women talk about their individual experience of the health service. Consultants are extremely busy and in an ideal world they should have time for individual patients, they barely have fime to do rounds and they also have fsmilies to take care of. Tony O Brien ran the entire Health Service so he was probably working fourteen hours a day too. Why shouldnt he use his retirement speech to point to HSE improvements, he owed it to HSE staff to point out the value of their work.
 

Disillusioned democrat

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
15,603
Neither Tony O Brien or Doctor Graiine Flannelly should have resigned over this but no one wanted to calm down and listen long enough to hear what they had to say. You cant compete with twitter nonsense and this is what politics is in this country now.
Leo in particular should have known the limits of cancer screening and stood behind Doctor Flanelly. In losing her we have lost a dedicated expert in cervicalcancer and Irish women need people of her calibre. She was hung out to dry.
Leo has committed ten million of our taxpayers money to two people but Leo and Fine Gael arent affected by public waiting lists, they probably all have private health insurance so are seen immediately.

Doctor Scally had nothing else to do but listen to women talk about their individual experience of the health service. Consultants are extremely busy and in an ideal world they should have time for individual patients, they barely have fime to do rounds and they also have fsmilies to take care of. Tony O Brien ran the entire Health Service so he was probably working fourteen hours a day too. Why shouldnt he use his retirement speech to point to HSE improvements, he owed it to HSE staff to point out the value of their work.
Leo does know the limitation of the tests, but that wasn’t the issue, the problem was the completely farcical way the HSE managed the communication of known errors in the process at a time when Leo was Minister for Health, so basically Leo just wanted this to go away so he could get on with campaignforLeo, the money thrown at the victims matters nought to Varadkar, nor the suffereing, nor the joke of a helpline they created, just that it won’t interfere with his sociopathic career plan.
 

making waves

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
19,179
Something else for the HSE to f..up?
the HSE used to run the tests until the government decided to privatise them - the f*ck-up happened not by the HSE but after privatisation.

The HSE is now negotiating to renew the contract with the private companies that f*cked-up - except they are demanding that the government indemnify them against the next time they f*ck-up - and the government will agree (because the ideology of privatisation trumps the welfare of patients) - it is utter madness.
 

making waves

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
19,179
There is one astonishing statement in this article - It did not find that the screening process itself was flawed. This is utter bollix - the government were warned at the time they privatised the testing of smears would be a disaster.

On 6 August 2008 Joe Higgins wrote the following in a newspaper column
The incremental privatisation of areas of the Health Services, relentlessly pushed along under the Government of Cowen, Harney and Gormley, is sometimes referred as the ‘Americanisation’ of the Irish health system. What has not really registered with most people is, that it is literally the case that one crucial area of Health is being moved to the United States, resulting in a disastrous loss of critical areas of expertise to the Irish Health Service. Screening for cervical cancer is a vital service to drastically reduce the development of this awful disease in Irish women...

Some 300,000 tests will be examined each year from now on. Incredibly the Health Service Executive has decided that, instead of laboratories in Irish public hospitals doing the tests and being given the resources to do them, they will be sent instead, for at least the next two years, to a private company in the United States, Quest Diagnostics Inc.
The consequences of this decision are calamitous for the public health system here. Up to this cervical cytology has been an important part of the work of public hospital laboratories. Now, however, because of the HSE decision staff in these labs will have to be redeployed out of the Cytology Departments, a process that is already beginning. This means that in a few years when a new tender is circulated for the following years’ tests, no Irish public hospital will be able to apply as they will not have the expert personnel or capacity in their Cytology Department...

The HSE has claimed that it took the decision to award the contract to Quest on the basis that it was the cheapest tender. Even if true, this is stunningly short sighted. Since the process of examination of the cervical smears is hugely labour intensive, what does it say about the pay and working conditions of those who will be employed to do the work in the US? The price per unit analysed in the HSE contract should be published to answer fears that an artificially low tender was offered to secure the initial contract.
Just how driven by their ‘for profit’ basis US private medical companies like Quest are, is graphically shown in a transcript of a Call Conference held this April dealing with the company’s first quarter business results. Senior executives of Quest and big financial investors ranging from Goldman Sachs to JP Morgan and Credit Suisse were involved...

Even worse the HSE awarded this contract to Quest in the full knowledge that his company, like many US medical companies, was forced to pay out over €25 million in the US for fraudulent practices... Even at this late stage a clamour should ensue demanding that this vital specialist service remains here and remains public.
 

Merovingian

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
1,595
There is one astonishing statement in this article - It did not find that the screening process itself was flawed. This is utter bollix - the government were warned at the time they privatised the testing of smears would be a disaster.

On 6 August 2008 Joe Higgins wrote the following in a newspaper column
Unfortunately you are letting your political opinions separate you from the facts:

1.The was no public screening system prior to Cervical Check hence it was never 'privatised'. The public system operating prior to CervicalCheck was shambolic with ad hoc screening based on self presentation to your GP; therefore those from lower socio-economic groups were least likely to attend and hence had an appalling mortality rate. Waiting times for results were over 6 months, there was little formal audit or quality control. Interestingly some of those providing the service thought everything was fine and said so in the media. I can tell you as a fact that others, frequently newly returned from abroad were aghast at the service being provided and were happy when it was outsourced.
2. The screening process was not flawed. The laboratories are working within international audited guidelines. The false negative rates can therefore be taken to be within international norms.
3. Most systems European systems do not do retrospective audits.
4. The screw up was in not anticipating that doing an audit of known cancer cases would inevitably lead to cases of potential misses. Remember 1 in 4 cases are missed and that this information would have a devastating effect for the women involved. They should have been informed up front whether they wished to have their smears reviewed and if so whether they wished to be told the results and by whom. Cervival Check ringing up a Consultant and telling her 'by the way Mary Murphy's old smear in retrospect may have been suspicious off you go and tell her' was destined to be a clusterf@£k of epic proportions.

Public private has nothing to do with it. It is there in black and white in his report. The private labs were operating safely and appropriately. Fact.
 

Noble Guardian

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2016
Messages
801
Twitter
@NobleGuardianIE
It's amazing that, despite the comprehensive report, some still insist on believing that outsourcing was a bad idea. The facts just don't support this fantasy.
 

galteeman

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
2,343
He went on to talk about the difficulty of reviewing smear tests where it is already known that cancer is present – this is clearly not the same as looking at smears without that knowledge.
I think that is an interesting piece of information. Looks like he is saying that it's much easier to spot cancer in the old smears when you already know the person has cancer!
It follows that due to this inherent bias the person reviewing the old smears is more likely to decide someone was negligent in the original conclusion.
 

General Mayhem

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
11,205
I think that is an interesting piece of information. Looks like he is saying that it's much easier to spot cancer in the old smears when you already know the person has cancer!
It follows that due to this inherent bias the person reviewing the old smears is more likely to decide someone was negligent in the original conclusion.
We were told that the missed diagnoses in cases of phelan and Mhic mhathuna were egregious ie there was no way their tests should have been found to be negatives. That is why they got such large payouts.

Now we are being told these were normal misses.

Only one of these claims can be true.

Which is it?
 
Last edited:

Noble Guardian

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2016
Messages
801
Twitter
@NobleGuardianIE
😆😆
 

JimmyFoley

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2016
Messages
9,647
We were told that the missed diagnoses in cases of phelan and Mhic mhathuna were egregious ie there was no way their tests should have been found to be negatives. That is why they got such large payouts.

Now we are being told these were normal misses.

Only one of these claims can be true.

Which is it?
I think you already know the answer.
 

nationalsday

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 1, 2011
Messages
3,996
I never really understood as to how cervical cancer was caused and I just googled it there. It says:-

What is the main cause of cervical cancer?
Can you get cervical cancer if you are not sexually active?
If you're a virgin — meaning you haven't had sexual (vaginal) intercourse — you may have a low risk of cervical cancer, but you can still consider testing. ... In most cases, cervical cancer is caused by a sexually transmitted infection called human papillomavirus (HPV).


If this is true then I was just wondering if the problem could be solved by simply abstaining from riding the 'oul ****-carousel?
 

Ardillaun

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 4, 2010
Messages
11,281
I think that is an interesting piece of information. Looks like he is saying that it's much easier to spot cancer in the old smears when you already know the person has cancer!
It follows that due to this inherent bias the person reviewing the old smears is more likely to decide someone was negligent in the original conclusion.
The problem is how to assess an opinion. I think the best way would be to reproduce the original circumstances as closely as possible, i.e. have the slide examined by multiple cytotechnologists as a routine specimen rather than by expert pathologists without time constraints who are aware of the outcome and may be also employed by one of the parties in a legal action.
 
Top