Did you know the FG plan is the same: a bond to be sold to the citizens?

feargach

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Between now and the funding deadline (reportedly in mid-2011, but who knows what's going on behind the scenes) the minds of all sane Irish people will be wondering about the only way out of the crisis without having our economy filleted by the IMF team who call themselves "economic hit-men". This is for Irish people to transfer some of the €100bn in non-state money into recovery bonds.

The ignorant and the insane will continue on in their fantasy that deep cuts are the way to some form of salvation. This is foolish, of course, as the cuts will simply cause an economic collapse so deep that default or EU/IMF rescue are the only options. So instead of simply suffering under the rule of malicious hit-men we will be in the happy state of being deeply broke and suffering under the rule of malicious hit-men.

Greed and selfishness go with ignorance and dimness like cheese and wine. As a result, those who favour the above suicide method are also virulently against the solidarity bond. They don't know what economics is about, but they do know they hate giving up control of their money, even on a temporary basis for self-preservation.

They have couched their hatred of solidarity bonds in terms of a hatred for the current Minister for Finance and Taoiseach.

They appear unaware that the party they mostly support in the next election has exactly the same approach. I quote from the Fine Gael Spring 2010 document:

http://www.finegael.ie/upload/NewERA2010.pdf

New Financing: In addition to the sale of old, non-strategic State assets, NewERA will be financed through: 1) New commercial borrowing by key semi- State companies, which will not count as Government expenditure; 2) Funding from the European Investment Bank (EIB); 3) An injection of funds from the National Pension Reserve Fund; and 4) A NewERA Recovery Bond which will be offered to the Irish people.
So the challenge goes out to FG supporters who roundly reject the essentially identical current product offered by the state right now: how do you square your support for FG with your opposition to the identical policy pursued at the present time?

I put it to you that your motive is simple short-sighted self-destructive selfishness rather than any shard of principle.
 


Tea Party Patriot

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More of the invest your money stupidly out of patriotism rubbish again. Hadn't you something similar up a week ago only under owning money to foreign creditors.
 

feargach

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Are you an FG supporter? If not, there's no contradiction in your opposition to bond purchases. If you DO support FG, you have a case to answer.
 

FakeViking

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Everyone knows that cuts are coming, that's inevitable.

And an increasing percentage of people are beginning to realise that Lenny is all spin and no substance. People want to see some genuine change and reform, not this useless "we need another month to come up with a plan" (because there's a byelection) waffle.
 

DeGaulle 2.0

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The FG policy is to make cuts because quite obviously the 19 or 20 billion annual deficit cannot continue for long, but also to invest in the economy using the NPRF as a stimulus. If people want to invest in the economic stimulus plan through the bond, that's fine also.

We cannot go on indefinitely borrowing 400 million euro a week. Between cuts and increased taxes, this gap has to be closed.
 

Baron von Biffo

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The FG policy is to make cuts because quite obviously the 19 or 20 billion annual deficit cannot continue for long, but also to invest in the economy using the NPRF as a stimulus. If people want to invest in the economic stimulus plan through the bond, that's fine also.

We cannot go on indefinitely borrowing 400 million euro a week. Between cuts and increased taxes, this gap has to be closed.
FF have that stimulus stuff well covered :)
 

Tea Party Patriot

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The FG policy is to make cuts because quite obviously the 19 or 20 billion annual deficit cannot continue for long, but also to invest in the economy using the NPRF as a stimulus. If people want to invest in the economic stimulus plan through the bond, that's fine also.

We cannot go on indefinitely borrowing 400 million euro a week. Between cuts and increased taxes, this gap has to be closed.
Any investment in Irish bonds should be as part of a balanced portfolio which takes the long term performance and risk, of the investors overall assets into account. No financial advisor or accountant is going to push this one the people who actually have the money to invest.

Basically to raise 100 billion, the figured mentioned in the OP you would have to get €20,000 off everyone in the country. Assuming that 20% of them including men, women and children took it up that would be €100,000 each on average. Basing it on a balanced portfolio with a maximum of 20% in liquid cash / bonds the average investor would have to have investments outside of the family home of €500,000; and this is assuming that they didn't do the sensible thing and spread their bond investments over a number of stable 1st world governments and currencies. If the government try to sell this one, whoever is in power, it would be no better than flogging eircom shares.
 

kerdasi amaq

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If they charge DIRT tax on it, I'm not interested.
 

feargach

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Oh right, I see. Thanks, kinda wanted to check.
Clearly, you didn't.

If you had wanted to check, you probably would have, well, checked.

One of the first to shoot at the idea in April was The_Big_Fellow. That was Michael Collins' nickname, so I'm sure he's likely to have FG leanings. Also Supermanpolitician had an FG logo.

Are you saying there are FG posters on this site who have expressed any support for their party's bond-issuance policy? I haven't seen any such post. Virtually all posts relating to the matter have been rabidly opposed to the issuance of recovery/solidarity/etc bonds to Irish citizens.

I checked my facts, now you check yours.

My stance is that so-called FG supporters on P.ie are at variance with their party in their refusal to express support for the principle that Irish citizens should lend money to the Irish state out of a mixture of intelligent self-interest and patriotism.

Got a significant number of posts from declared FG posters openly and clearly embracing their party's position on this principle? I don't think you do. But if you got it, bring it on!
 

meriwether

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Clearly, you didn't.

If you had wanted to check, you probably would have, well, checked.

One of the first to shoot at the idea in April was The_Big_Fellow. That was Michael Collins' nickname, so I'm sure he's likely to have FG leanings. Also Supermanpolitician had an FG logo.

Are you saying there are FG posters on this site who have expressed any support for their party's bond-issuance policy? I haven't seen any such post. Virtually all posts relating to the matter have been rabidly opposed to the issuance of recovery/solidarity/etc bonds to Irish citizens.

I checked my facts, now you check yours.

My stance is that so-called FG supporters on P.ie are at variance with their party in their refusal to express support for the principle that Irish citizens should lend money to the Irish state out of a mixture of intelligent self-interest and patriotism.

Got a significant number of posts from declared FG posters openly and clearly embracing their party's position on this principle? I don't think you do. But if you got it, bring it on!
2 then.
 

feargach

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Basically to raise 100 billion, the figured mentioned in the OP you would have to get €20,000 off everyone in the country.
Jesus wept, how thick are you?

I only mentioned that when you exclude public sector spending, Irish GNP is 100bn, not that that is a target figure.

Are you an FG supporter?
 

dgeraghty

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Clearly, you didn't.

If you had wanted to check, you probably would have, well, checked.

One of the first to shoot at the idea in April was The_Big_Fellow. That was Michael Collins' nickname, so I'm sure he's likely to have FG leanings. Also Supermanpolitician had an FG logo.

Are you saying there are FG posters on this site who have expressed any support for their party's bond-issuance policy? I haven't seen any such post. Virtually all posts relating to the matter have been rabidly opposed to the issuance of recovery/solidarity/etc bonds to Irish citizens.

I checked my facts, now you check yours.

My stance is that so-called FG supporters on P.ie are at variance with their party in their refusal to express support for the principle that Irish citizens should lend money to the Irish state out of a mixture of intelligent self-interest and patriotism.

Got a significant number of posts from declared FG posters openly and clearly embracing their party's position on this principle? I don't think you do. But if you got it, bring it on!
Shouldn't this be a private conversation/query between yourself and The Big Fellow and Supermanpolitician then? Your opening post mentioned FG supporters as if there were a thousands of people across the country going against their own party's policies.

I don't see anything wrong with a recovery bond in principle, and I'm a FG supporter. I'd probably support FG's official policy on it, but of course I'd have to read it first.
 

feargach

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I don't see anything wrong with a recovery bond in principle, and I'm a FG supporter. I'd probably support FG's official policy on it, but of course I'd have to read it first.
No, it's a pretty big issue for p.ie, if the whole website is devoid of anyone from the organised parties willing to stand up for the principle involved.

It says a lot that you haven't read it, given that I gave you the link in the OP, and the bond policy is on the first page of that link AND that I quoted the bond policy in the OP.

All three big parties are officially behind the principle.

But there is exactly one poster on politics.ie, who doesn't and never has given support to any party, who is energetically promoting the principle.

It shows just what an irrelevant group politics.ie is, when it's up to a lone non-aligned voice to fly the flag for a principle which is official party policy for the 3 dominant parties.
 

Mitsui2

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Feargach, you're getting it backwards in my case. I have no view one way or another of bonds per se, but I wouldn't willingly trust Brian Lenihan with even my kid's lunch-money.
 

SideysGhost

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So, another hysterical feargach thread based on hot air and fevered delusions then?

Go take your pills and have a nice lie down ya spanner.
 

Tea Party Patriot

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Jesus wept, how thick are you?

I only mentioned that when you exclude public sector spending, Irish GNP is 100bn, not that that is a target figure.

Are you an FG supporter?
Point corrected I misread your opening line, but most of the economic proposals I have seen from you on other threads are so daft that I should be forgiven for having done so.

Given your diatribe at the start in defence of it, FG supporter or not I feel it should be criticised here. Basically its still a rubbish idea for the following reasons:

Any investment in Irish bonds should be as part of a balanced portfolio which takes the long term performance and risk, of the investors overall assets into account. No financial advisor or accountant is going to push this one on the people who actually have the money to invest.

Any balanced portfolio should have a maximum of 20% in liquid cash / bonds which should be spread over a number of bonds from stable 1st world governments in varying currencies.

If the government try to sell this one, whoever is in power, it would be no better than flogging eircom shares. Anyone who puts their savings at risk, and diminishes the performance of their portfolio for the sake of “patriotic” politicians is either a lunatic or a fool.

By the way my letters are BBS hons, MBS hons, FCIMA, at the end of the day it is people like me who will be advising people on this, and I would be advising against.
 
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feargach

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Ah there's my little piteous stalker again, I was wondering when he was going to show up. Such a strange feeling, being the object of a strange little man's obsession.
 


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