Digitisation of supply chains makes hard border redundant?

Patslatt1

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See Digitisation is helping to deliver goods faster
Quote: "IBM and Maersk are using blockchain to try to make shipping paperless and transparent...The consortium accounts for almost half the world's cargo-container shipments. Every participant in the process, from shipper to customs agent to auditor, will be able to track shipments from start to finish by inspecting the relevant parts of the blockchain rather than ploughing through lots of paperwork." This technology could make a hard border redundant for legal shipments. Maybe the Irish government should modify its stand on the Irish border Backstop to take this into account.
 


Kevin Parlon

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See Digitisation is helping to deliver goods faster
Quote: "IBM and Maersk are using blockchain to try to make shipping paperless and transparent...The consortium accounts for almost half the world's cargo-container shipments. Every participant in the process, from shipper to customs agent to auditor, will be able to track shipments from start to finish by inspecting the relevant parts of the blockchain rather than ploughing through lots of paperwork." This technology could make a hard border redundant for legal shipments. Maybe the Irish government should modify its stand on the Irish border Backstop to take this into account.
What % of exports from Ireland to the UK go in containers? Most agricultural exports to the UK are done via refrigerated trucks. So your point is moot.
 

Orbit v2

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More "blockchain" bullshyte. At the end of the day, lorries are going to arrive at the border, and as it was explained to me the other day, in the case of groupage loads, you could have dozens of different shipments in the same truck, and if any one of them has incorrect paperwork then the whole truck load is held up.
 

raetsel

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Maybe the Irish government should modify its stand on the Irish border Backstop to take this into account.
You've obviously never met any of the smugglers who used to operate on the south Armagh border. :)
 

Patslatt1

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What % of exports from Ireland to the UK go in containers? Most agricultural exports to the UK are done via refrigerated trucks. So your point is moot.
There may be lots of containers in the trucks.
The tech for tracking containers can also track other goods AFAIK.
Mobile tractor trailer trucks carrying diagnostic equipment can check goods shipments away from the Irish border. They likely would need security force protection for a time to prevent paramilitry attacks.
 
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Patslatt1

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More "blockchain" bullshyte. At the end of the day, lorries are going to arrive at the border, and as it was explained to me the other day, in the case of groupage loads, you could have dozens of different shipments in the same truck, and if any one of them has incorrect paperwork then the whole truck load is held up.
Incorrect paperwork can be prevented by shipper fines as happens with delays in loading trucks.
 

Patslatt1

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You've obviously never met any of the smugglers who used to operate on the south Armagh border. :)
Illegal shipments will require a different tech policing system including both cheap and dear drones,night vision miniature cameras and sound detection. Heavy police enforcement may be needed given the potentially huge revenues from smuggling goods from the UK. A smuggled item might save 10 to 20% on evading customs duties and costs of elaborate customs paperwork.
 
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raetsel

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Illegal shipments will require a different tech policing system including both cheap and dear drones,night vision miniature cameras and sound detection. Heavy police enforcement may be needed given the potentially huge revenues from smuggling goods from the UK. A smuggled item might save 10 to 20% on evading customs duties and costs of elaborate customs paperwork.
In other words a hard border.
Concede nothing. Give Johnson and his delusional support base f*ck all. It will be a big favour to the UK. It will help to take him down.
 

Buchaill Dana

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Illegal shipments will require a different tech policing system including both cheap and dear drones,night vision miniature cameras and sound detection. Heavy police enforcement may be needed given the potentially huge revenues from smuggling goods from the UK. A smuggled item might save 10 to 20% on evading customs duties and costs of elaborate customs paperwork.
So a hard border....
 

cytex

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See Digitisation is helping to deliver goods faster
Quote: "IBM and Maersk are using blockchain to try to make shipping paperless and transparent...The consortium accounts for almost half the world's cargo-container shipments. Every participant in the process, from shipper to customs agent to auditor, will be able to track shipments from start to finish by inspecting the relevant parts of the blockchain rather than ploughing through lots of paperwork." This technology could make a hard border redundant for legal shipments. Maybe the Irish government should modify its stand on the Irish border Backstop to take this into account.
Illegal shipments will require a different tech policing system including both cheap and dear drones,night vision miniature cameras and sound detection. Heavy police enforcement may be needed given the potentially huge revenues from smuggling goods from the UK. A smuggled item might save 10 to 20% on evading customs duties and costs of elaborate customs paperwork.
You have hit the nail on the head to why blockchain is not the answer here . Fundamentally it is a Leger system that is secure and can't be changed. Where it falls down is if someone goes up/down fills there car with cheap goods and goes back across the border through some back road . Not even a hard border will solve this problem as the border is too porous let alone Blockchain if there is no entries to the ledger then the ledger can't be tracked so a hard border is needed. If there is no hardborder and it's cheaper with low chances of being caught then even legal people will just ignore the Blockchain technology.

With Blockchain you need few entry points and you need to police those. We do not have that unless we police the ports . The Dup are against this . the only other place to do this is on the border and then it will be a hard border that can't be policed as it is too porous. So to answer your question no Digitisation does not make the border irrelevant .
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
There has been a digitisation of the logistics supply chain around high value and high tax earners such as whiskies for a long time now.

Bar coded bottles and shipments which can be tracked at any point in the supply chain internationally back through the supply chain and down to a few yards and that is not new.

Still hasn't killed off alcohol smuggling internationally. Or forgery of product, labels etc.

Wherever an imbalance in tax, customs duties exist there will be smuggling, sure as night follows day.

That's been the way for centuries and no tracking system yet devised has defeated that industry. Mainly because by definition it can't. The only known way to defeat and destroy a smuggler's market is to destroy the imbalance that attracts the grey-market operator.
 

raetsel

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The utter failure by the Brexiteers to understand or appreciate the dynamics of the border in Ireland is at the root of the problem.
Because it was arbitrarily drawn rather than having developed over many centuries based upon natural geographic and ethnic divisions, when it was imposed it divided communities, friends, neighbours, and families, who were interconnected by hundreds of roads. Despite that many of the border crossings remained open until the outbreak of the Troubles, when the British army cratered many minor roads, a policy that created huge resentment among the communities it cut off from each other.
Remarkably, we have more crossing points on our 310 mile border than the combined total of the EU/eastern Europe and USA/Canada frontiers combined. Therefore attempting to impose practical customs arrangements across its entire span is a logistical nightmare without closing all but a handful of roads. By way of comparison on the Poland Ukraine border which is just 20 miles longer than ours, there are only 11 official crossings.
The claims that there won't be a hard border without the backstop, and that border communities will not be affected by Brexit, fools few people who live along it.
It is also worth remarking that pro-remain politicians in Britain are quietly supportive of Ireland's firm stance on this issue.

 

raetsel

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In short Irish politicians must never be duped into conceding any ground that would harm the interests of communities along the border, in order to accomodate extremist fanatics in London.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
The aspect of the Brexit capers I've been most interested in have been any sign of wavering in support of our backstop position and the GFA agreement from Brussels.

I trust Brussels behind as much as I'd trust anyone in the 'Great Game', which is to say not at all.

I'd be lending some thought to a potential legal challenge to any agreement, veto, any kind of instrument available to us at all to ensure that our interests cannot be dismissed in Brussels or Westminster anywhere in this process.

We do not have a courageous history in this 'Great Game' but the stakes are too high for us to be trusting and reactive rather than proactive in this one.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
On a positive note I was pleased to see some comment that the state had been preparing strategically for the Brexit issue as far back as 2015, which given the antics next door could not be said of Westminster.
 

benroe

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I live close to the border, I remember when there was a hard border and to be honest it had its advantages, if there was a big discrepancy in the exchange rate we would cross over to do our shopping, fill the car up with cheap diesel and make big savings. You could get together with a few friends and neighbors and order a tanker of home heating oil or a lorry load of coal and they always turned up.
But heres the thing, sometimes the rate would go the other way and we would be inundated with northern shoppers taking advantage.
Is it not reasonable to assume that these minor infractions even themselves out over time and are therefore not that important in the general scheme of things?
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
it is a naturally occurring economic dynamic anywhere there is a misbalance in pricing, and a border isn't going to stop it, no matter how hard.

If a wall was built across the island the price of fishing boats would mysteriously start to rise.
 

Patslatt1

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In other words a hard border.
Concede nothing. Give Johnson and his delusional support base f*ck all. It will be a big favour to the UK. It will help to take him down.
The hard border for illegal shipments may not be noticed depending on the scale of smuggling and the degree of policing back from the border.
You have hit the nail on the head to why blockchain is not the answer here . Fundamentally it is a Leger system that is secure and can't be changed. Where it falls down is if someone goes up/down fills there car with cheap goods and goes back across the border through some back road . Not even a hard border will solve this problem as the border is too porous let alone Blockchain if there is no entries to the ledger then the ledger can't be tracked so a hard border is needed. If there is no hardborder and it's cheaper with low chances of being caught then even legal people will just ignore the Blockchain technology.

With Blockchain you need few entry points and you need to police those. We do not have that unless we police the ports . The Dup are against this . the only other place to do this is on the border and then it will be a hard border that can't be policed as it is too porous. So to answer your question no Digitisation does not make the border irrelevant .
00000000000
Say there are 300 roads and boreens on the border. A fleet of cheap drones and sound detection systems could monitor traffic on them and pinpoint suspicious traffic. The militaries have made major advancements in drone techs as a key component of warfare.
 
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