DIY abortions in Ireland



Cato

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Spare us the Disney nonsense. It's easy to be detached and indifferent about the deaths of strangers.
Actually one of the goals of Stoicism is to be as indifferent as possible about one's own death and the deaths of one's loved ones. Nothing Disney about it. And living and dying are a part of what it is to be human. Our mortality is one of the things that defines us.

The essence of tyranny is the oppression of the weak and helpless; it's the philosophy of the bully. Abortion is the exact fulfilment of that philosophy.
You accused me of Disney, but the above is pure Mad Hatter - words mean whatever I mean them to mean.
 

Half Nelson

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Actually one of the goals of Stoicism is to be as indifferent as possible about one's own death and the deaths of one's loved ones. Nothing Disney about it. And living and dying are a part of what it is to be human. Our mortality is one of the things that defines us.
Interesting that you attempt to associate deliberate acts of killing with natural death - a perfect excuse for the killing fields - it's a circle of life sort of thing. Even you can't be that deluded.
You accused me of Disney, but the above is pure Mad Hatter - words mean whatever I mean them to mean.
So we see.;)
 

fluffykontbiscuits

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I'd say attempting to make 9 year old rape victims continue pregnancy is pretty bloody tyrannical ....
Exactamondo, the very fact the pro lifers would want a nine year old to endure this would fulfill their definition of tyranny. Imagine a child having a child? Must look up what the Bible says (in the mood for fiction)
 

SevenStars

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As far as Im concerned the jury is out on abortions in the first trimester (what level of development does the foetus have to be before a surgical abortion can take place?)...and the situation in England is pretty sick where you can abort at a stage in pregnancy where if you gave birth the child could survive...However there does seem to be something seriously wrong with people who obesess on this issue on both sides of the debate...

I mean liamfoley for instance...The high infant mortality rate in the USA is part and parcel of the "freedom" he celebrates there, so why is he fussing over abortion? Has to be some other reason than cocern for the unborn or whatever...
 

ne0ica

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As far as Im concerned the jury is out on abortions in the first trimester (what level of development does the foetus have to be before a surgical abortion can take place?)...and the situation in England is pretty sick where you can abort at a stage in pregnancy where if you gave birth the child could survive...However there does seem to be something seriously wrong with people who obesess on this issue on both sides of the debate...

I mean liamfoley for instance...The high infant mortality rate in the USA is part and parcel of the "freedom" he celebrates there, so why is he fussing over abortion? Has to be some other reason than cocern for the unborn or whatever...
Yes it is fairly fanatical in the US. The Pro choice lobby are very powerful part of the Democratic party. Most Democratic leaders are in favour of late term abortions which is at 8 months in womb. Even Obama block a bill while a Senator in the Illinois legislature which would mandated medical attention if a child was born in an abortion clinic something which happens very rarely but does happen due to late term abortions.

The other side of the coin is the Pro-Life crew which has managed to rope in many decent people in backing Republican candidates. The thing is that George W.Bush and the Republicans have done very little to end abortion and have no plans to either.
 

fluffykontbiscuits

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As far as Im concerned the jury is out on abortions in the first trimester (what level of development does the foetus have to be before a surgical abortion can take place?)...and the situation in England is pretty sick where you can abort at a stage in pregnancy where if you gave birth the child could survive...However there does seem to be something seriously wrong with people who obesess on this issue on both sides of the debate...

I mean liamfoley for instance...The high infant mortality rate in the USA is part and parcel of the "freedom" he celebrates there, so why is he fussing over abortion? Has to be some other reason than cocern for the unborn or whatever...
I attended a lecture a few months ago and they said that abortion can happen up until the primitive streak

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ne0ica

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Have you any evidence to support this claim ?
Yes I have, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Barak Obama have all spoken in favour of it. Bill Clinton vetoed laws banning it.

Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

George W. Bush signing the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003, surrounded by members of CongressThe GOP led Congress first passed similar laws banning "partial-birth abortion" in December 1995, and again October 1997, but they were vetoed by President Bill Clinton.[13]

In the House, the final legislation was supported in 2003 by 218 Republicans and 63 Democrats. It was opposed by 4 Republicans, 137 Democrats, and 1 independent. Twelve members were absent, 7 Republicans and 5 Democrats.[14] In the Senate the bill was supported by 47 Republicans and 17 Democrats. It was opposed by 3 Republicans, 30 Democrats, and 1 independent.
 

Cruimh

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Sorry -the claim made was that

Most Democratic leaders are in favour of late term abortions which is at 8 months in womb.


Refusing to ban the procedure entirely is rather different than being in favour of it - implying that they approve of late term aboprtions in general and think they should be widely carried out .....
 

Wednesday

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Yes I have, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Barak Obama have all spoken in favour of it. Bill Clinton vetoed laws banning it.

Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you read your own link, you would see that that bill refers to a procedure, not to a time limit. The procedure can be, and is, carried out well before eight months. In fact, according to your own link it is usually carried out between four to six months. As such the bill was probably unconstitutional anyway, since under Roe v Wade, procedures in that period may be banned only for the sake of the woman's health.

So Cruimh's question has not been answered.
 

Radix

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Why do you keep putting in the tautologous 'pre-birth' before the word abortion? Is it an eccentricity, or are you hedging against there being a disciple of Peter Singer in the audience?
Cato me ould buddy,

Pull up your stool to the fire till I tell you.

When people but the word "pre" before another word, what they mean is precisely that; "before". 'Pre' this post by me, this post didn't exist on this board, but it did exist.

Now that you can actually see it, do you deny it had a gestation and a right to be aired?

Careful now!
 

Radix

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Surely our sense of moral values are derived from our capacity to empathise with others?
As in, 'I think, therefore you are'?

Subjective versus objective?
 

Cato

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Cato me ould buddy,

Pull up your stool to the fire till I tell you.

When people but the word "pre" before another word, what they mean is precisely that; "before". 'Pre' this post by me, this post didn't exist on this board, but it did exist.

Now that you can actually see it, do you deny it had a gestation and a right to be aired?

Careful now!
Apparently you don't understand what a tautology is.
 

liamfoley

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Yes Liamfoley Mr. Mysogynistic Idiot. This argument is as old as the problem and the problem is unwanted pregnancies, and duh, women have been getting pregnant since Eve got us all thrown out of the Garden of bleedin' Eden for eating an apple! We even get blamed on that one. Started early, didn't it, blaming women for everything.

I can just picture you now, shaking your head and tut tutting as they find another young woman bleeding to death after an illegal abortion. Oh how horrible, the poor woman, you'd say and off you would go on your merry way feeling so superior and good and holy and "cleansed" because this is the one "sin" you cannot commit. You cannot abort your pregnancy. The fact that you cannot become pregnant would never enter your idiot mind, would it? No!

If a woman wants to have an abortion, that is her business, between her, her doctor and her God, and in this country, also the law. So we export our problems as usual. It has sod all to do with you or any man.

As for your last bark at me that "most women do not want abortion" of course they don't you fool. Because they are either not pregnant, are well past their sell by date, want to get pregnant, are pregnant or cannot get pregnant. It's the women who get pregnant who do not want to be pregnant that abortion is for. So why the hell would another woman approve of it if she didn't need it? Ask her when she needs it and you'll get a different response, I can guarantee.

Now why don't you and your neanderthal male colleagues shut up, like I said, and come back when you get pregnant. Like, never! It's none of your business.
You call me a misogynistic idiot, at this stage I am used to your personal abuse. However personal abuse is never a substitute for good argumentation. True, I have not read every post you have put up on this forum but every one that I have read lacks this essential quality.
You deliberately misquote me on the point about women being opposed to abortion. This shows that it is not just misunderstanding but willful and dishonest misrepresentation.
 

SevenStars

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Yes it is fairly fanatical in the US. The Pro choice lobby are very powerful part of the Democratic party. Most Democratic leaders are in favour of late term abortions which is at 8 months in womb. Even Obama block a bill while a Senator in the Illinois legislature which would mandated medical attention if a child was born in an abortion clinic something which happens very rarely but does happen due to late term abortions.
I think there is something seriously pathological about someone who would have a "partial birth abortion" and even more so about someone who would perform one. However as someone else pointed out when exactly human personality as opposed to life begins in the womb isnt a question there have been clear cut answers to through the years, and there is something are seriously disturbing about a lot of the "Pro-Life" movement (Army of God types, people who obesess over photographs of late abortions, etc).

This maybe immature but like I think a lot of Irish people I dont have exactly the knowledge to carefully examine the issue with the care it deserves, or much of the stomach to either...And I dont have a lot of trust for activists on both sides of the debate and I certainly dont want to have all the drama that is going on in the states over the issue here.
 

Radix

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Apparently you don't understand what a tautology is.
For those who are so blind to the humanity of the pre born child Cato, I sometimes find that it is necessary to use more than one word to express the aforementioned humanity, however unnecessary that may seem to be for some.

However I have found that there are those who have become so blind that they just will not see!

This post didn't exist for you until I made it visible here. But it did exist.

Would you have denied it, its period of gestation?

What would that make you?

Again I ask you, think carefully.
 

Cato

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For those who are so blind to the humanity of the pre born child Cato, I sometimes find that it is necessary to use more than one word to express the aforementioned humanity, however unnecessary that may seem to be for some.

However I have found that there are those who have become so blind that they just will not see!

This post didn't exist for you until I made it visible here. But it did exist.

Would you have denied it, its period of gestation?

What would that make you?

Again I ask you, think carefully.
For the record, I have never denied the humanity of the human foetus or embryo. To do so would be more than a little odd.
 


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