Do FG Supporters Believe That Michael Collins Lost The War Of Independence?

TruthInTheNews

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I had a rather heated discussion the other night with a senior member of the FG party about the winners and losers in the civil war in the North. I put it to him that Michael Collins lost the War of Independence because he settled for dominion status and partition rather than full independence and a unitary state. I was shocked by his reply. He said yes, Michael Collins lost the War of Independence. Attitudes like this certainly explain why FG has disowned its past and why West Brit apologists like John Bruton spent the whole of last year apologising for 1916.



Do FG supporters believe that Michael Collins lost the War of Independence?
 


Niall996

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It was a a victory. One that ensured ultimate Indepedence and the great success story that followed. It should be celebrated. Every state had it's founding mythology and legend story. It's part of the societal glue. Celebrate it for a few years and it becomes the historical truth which is how history works generally. Plus it would be another excuse to have a drink. Can we have a Summer date this time?
 

silverharp

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I dont konw how anyone could have expected ireland to win as such, its not like the IRA beat the british in the field or drove them into the sea.
 

TruthInTheNews

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It was a a victory. One that ensured ultimate Indepedence and the great success story that followed. It should be celebrated. Every state had it's founding mythology and legend story. It's part of the societal glue. Celebrate it for a few years and it becomes the historical truth which is how history works generally. Plus it would be another excuse to have a drink. Can we have a Summer date this time?
Is that a yes or a no answer?
 

parentheses

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Ireland did lose insofar as it remaained a part of the Empire, Britain never recognised the Republic which had been proclaimed, and the country was partitioned.
 

FOURGREENFIELDS

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It was a a victory. One that ensured ultimate Indepedence and the great success story that followed. It should be celebrated. Every state had it's founding mythology and legend story. It's part of the societal glue. Celebrate it for a few years and it becomes the historical truth which is how history works generally. Plus it would be another excuse to have a drink. Can we have a Summer date this time?
"Ultimate Independence and a great success story"?? So you are happy that 26 counties got self determination but 800,000 Irish people in the North were cast adrift and left devoid of belonging? You are happy that a conflict raged from 1968 leaving over 3,000 dead and 10's of 1000's injured? You are happy that Ireland is in hock to the British and Germans owing billions in bank debt that won't be paid off for another 75 years? You are happy at the corruption and brown envelope culture that are by-words for the Irish 26 county state?
 

The Rahenyite

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We were running out of funds and ammunition and the British would have eventually defeated us if we didn't agree to a truce. The War Of Independence was neither a defeat or victory but a draw.
 

FOURGREENFIELDS

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Many Northern Nationalists are torn in their reaction to Michael Collins. Held in awe for his military genius, strength of conviction and bringing the British Empire to it's knees because others around the world like Mahatma Gandhi took great solace and inspiration from him. Extremely let down and left on a limb after he signed the Treaty which he correctly predicted would come back to haunt him. After his death Michael Collins brother said that his death was the worst thing that happened to Northern Nationalists. He said that his brother had great concerns about the North and the pogroms that were being carried out against the Belfast Catholic community. Apparently Collins had drawn up a dossier on the Unionist murder gangs and was determined to deal with them after the campaign in the South.
 

Niall996

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"Ultimate Independence and a great success story"?? So you are happy that 26 counties got self determination but 800,000 Irish people in the North were cast adrift and left devoid of belonging? You are happy that a conflict raged from 1968 leaving over 3,000 dead and 10's of 1000's injured? You are happy that Ireland is in hock to the British and Germans owing billions in bank debt that won't be paid off for another 75 years? You are happy at the corruption and brown envelope culture that are by-words for the Irish 26 county state?
You need to get out and see the world a bit. Ireland is probably in the top 10% of places where one would want to be living today.
 

ellie08

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I had a rather heated discussion the other night with a senior member of the FG party about the winners and losers in the civil war in the North. I put it to him that Michael Collins lost the War of Independence because he settled for dominion status and partition rather than full independence and a unitary state. I was shocked by his reply. He said yes, Michael Collins lost the War of Independence. Attitudes like this certainly explain why FG has disowned its past and why West Brit apologists like John Bruton spent the whole of last year apologising for 1916.



Do FG supporters believe that Michael Collins lost the War of Independence?
He had no choice, the NI govt was already in place and DeValera knew that - he even said himself that he had signed his own death warrant. Poor man, I think he had more to give to our country. DeValera was the devil of Eire for causing the civil war.
 

FOURGREENFIELDS

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You need to get out and see the world a bit. Ireland is probably in the top 10% of places where one would want to be living today.
Oh I have done, I have travelled quite extensively and in the greater picture wouldn't disagree with what you say BUT what is your train of thought on the 800,000 Irish citizens in the North of Ireland who still feel very disenfranchised about their culture and identity and the sense of nationhood that YOU may feel but THEY don't? Do they NOT matter and like the Irish media and political Establishment have done, should THEY just be ignored?
 

Sync

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We were running out of funds and ammunition and the British would have eventually defeated us if we didn't agree to a truce. The War Of Independence was neither a defeat or victory but a draw.
It was at least a partial victory for Collins and Co. But no one's really mapped out how they could have "won" the 32 counties and certainly no one's mapped out how the civil skirmish afterwards wouldn't have escalated into something far more serious had the UK given up the 6 counties who clearly wanted to remain British.
 

silverharp

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It was at least a partial victory for Collins and Co. But no one's really mapped out how they could have "won" the 32 counties and certainly no one's mapped out how the civil skirmish afterwards wouldn't have escalated into something far more serious had the UK given up the 6 counties who clearly wanted to remain British.
truth be told dev didnt want a large amount of urban protestants that would never vote for him in his ireland.
 

SideysGhost

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truth be told dev didnt want a large amount of urban protestants that would never vote for him in his ireland.
None of the FFG crowd want Themmuns upsetting the appletart - even though most Ulster Prods on social matters like divorce, contraception, abortion, gay rights etc have always been every bit as conservative as FFG.

It's one of the reasons why they hate and fear Nordie Fenians so much. Firstly we are in general pretty left-wing and progressive (by Irish standards) and having us in the State would hasten the end of their little medieval theocracy, secondly by our very existence we keep the idea of a United Ireland on the agenda - FFG would much prefer if the North was 99% Protestant and British and the border was a mile-high steel wall so they can refuse all contact. Poor diddums. Thirdly for some of them there is lingering guilt and shame for so blithely abandoning us - but a guilt and shame they can never admit to so it gets repressed and curdles into more fear and hate.

They're pressed messed in the head, FFGers.
 

JCR

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I had a rather heated discussion the other night with a senior member of the FG party about the winners and losers in the civil war in the North. I put it to him that Michael Collins lost the War of Independence because he settled for dominion status and partition rather than full independence and a unitary state. I was shocked by his reply. He said yes, Michael Collins lost the War of Independence. Attitudes like this certainly explain why FG has disowned its past and why West Brit apologists like John Bruton spent the whole of last year apologising for 1916.



Do FG supporters believe that Michael Collins lost the War of Independence?
This is a nice representation of a lot that is wrong with Irish politics. Is it supposed to be of importance to modern Ireland what current voters think of Collins? Are FG "supporters" supposed to be one group that vote according to a lineage going back a century? It is actually relevant to ask what voters think of FG policy with regard to the environment and economy, but this stuff is backward thinking crap.

Are there really people who vote for FG because its in some bizarre way supposed to be Collins party and they do so because of anything do with this stuff? There may be but they are likely very old and irrelevant if that is how they think. This question posed by the OP is a complete irrelevance to modern Ireland. Move on and deal with the issues we need to deal with not this ridiculous backward nationalist style nonsense.
 

TruthInTheNews

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This is a nice representation of a lot that is wrong with Irish politics. Is it supposed to be of importance to modern Ireland what current voters think of Collins? Are FG "supporters" supposed to be one group that vote according to a lineage going back a century? It is actually relevant to ask what voters think of FG policy with regard to the environment and economy, but this stuff is backward thinking crap.

Are there really people who vote for FG because its in some bizarre way supposed to be Collins party and they do so because of anything do with this stuff? There may be but they are likely very old and irrelevant if that is how they think. This question posed by the OP is a complete irrelevance to modern Ireland. Move on and deal with the issues we need to deal with not this ridiculous backward nationalist style nonsense.
Your post displays a complete lack of understanding of basic human nature and a disconnect from reality. The past shapes the future.

Are World War 1 commemorations just backward Unionist nonsense?
 

Spirit Of Newgrange

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It was a a victory. One that ensured ultimate Indepedence and the great success story that followed. It should be celebrated.
75 years of the young irish emigrating out of the gaff. And then colonisation of the island from every third world kip that's far away ?
 

Sync

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wombat

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Amazing what people worry about
 


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