Do Sinn Fein members endorse or encourage co-operation with the PSNI?

JoseyWhales

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Given that in recent times Sinn Fein have officially endorsed Britain's militia in the North the PSNI, and now that numerous senior Sinn Fein members and leaders such has Gerry Kelly, Brian Arthurs and Bobby Storey have openly encouraged members of the nationalist community to join the PSNI, and for members of nationalist/republican communities to inform on the activities of anti-GFA republican organisations.

Do run of the mill Sinn Fein members support the PSNI? and would you be willing to inform and report 'dissident' republican activity to this militia which while now under a different name is made up of the old structures of the RUC and is answerable and administered directly by the British government, and aided in its duties by the British Army and MI5?

I would like to hear the average Sinn Fein members views on this.
 


harryshounds

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interesting article in tribune this week, arthurs was quite adament nationalist shouldnt co operate with ruc/psni.
 

gweedore

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Given that in recent times Sinn Fein have officially endorsed Britain's militia in the North the PSNI, and now that numerous senior Sinn Fein members and leaders such has Gerry Kelly, Brian Arthurs and Bobby Storey have openly encouraged members of the nationalist community to join the PSNI, and for members of nationalist/republican communities to inform on the activities of anti-GFA republican organisations.

Do run of the mill Sinn Fein members support the PSNI? and would you be willing to inform and report 'dissident' republican activity to this militia which while now under a different name is made up of the old structures of the RUC and is answerable and administered directly by the British government, and aided in its duties by the British Army and MI5?

I would like to hear the average Sinn Fein members views on this.
as kenny dalglish says could be, could no be
 

Desperate Dan

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You don't have to inform to support the PSNI they are a necessary arm of the Govt. and are needed to control crime. In the 26 counties we just have to live with something similar do not forget that a lot of members in the border counties and the Park were very well looked after by Liz.
 

JoseyWhales

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All quiet on the Western Front, which I knew would be the case, Shinners like to delude themselves that they never voted to officially endorse the crown forces, and that their leadership does not encourage touting, but when its put to them reality kicks in, and its better to remain in the bubble of delusion.
 

PatsyDuffy LiamLynch

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Provisional Sinn Féin fully support the armed wing of the British state in Ireland. Both the Guards and the RUC are cut from the same cloth as the RIC, a Brutal force which was pieced together to ensure British interests were met in Ireland, both forces continue to act as the RIC although in a more subtle manner.
 

sgtharper

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Provisional Sinn Féin fully support the armed wing of the British state in Ireland. Both the Guards and the RUC are cut from the same cloth as the RIC, a Brutal force which was pieced together to ensure British interests were met in Ireland, both forces continue to act as the RIC although in a more subtle manner.
The RIC was not "a brutal force" by any means. It was in fact an excellent Police force, arguably one of best in the world during the time it was in existence. Well trained, well led, highly-disciplined and utterly impartial, it set the standard for policing in the rest of the UK and I'd venture throughout the world. Throughout it's existence Ireland was a uniquely peaceful and law-abiding country and it was said that "a woman could walk the full length and breadth of Ireland alone without fear of hindrance or molestation" Even Dan Breen, of all people, commented that the RIC were "as fine and decent a body of men as you would find in all Ireland".

So, in short, you're talking b*ll*cks.
 

Cruimh

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Page 144, Northern Ireland 1921 - 2001: Political Power and Social Classes, Bew et al.

In particular, traditional hostility to the security forces abated noticeably. In 1963 one of the party’s Stormont senators described the RUC as ‘a fine body of men who are doing a good job’.23 By February 1968, when it was proposed at Stormont to grant a supplementary estimate of £29,000 for the B Specials the party leader, Eddie McAteer, agreed to the proposal without qualification.24

(Senator Patrick O'Hare of the Nationalist Party )
 

Scipio

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Overall context is, of course, everything.

The RUC's failure didn't come from their being bad men, but from their operating inside a rotten, corrupt system:

To police a chronically divided society asks an awful lot from a good policeman. Having struggled through his exams and into his uniform, he plods forth with every intention of apprehending the wrongdoer and reassuring the virtuous. Can he ever achieve these admirable ends in the blighted, benighted, bomb-sited, blatherskited and relentlessly sound-bited community that is Northern Ireland?

The answer, according to Chris Ryder's rigorously researched, well written and illuminating book, is: only if he's allowed to. And for most of its worrying existence the Royal Ulster Constabulary wasn't allowed to, since its political masters programmed it with a poisonous agenda of imperium, impropriety, impudicity and impercipience.
The Fateful Split: Catholics and the Royal Ulster Constabulary by Chris Ryder - Reviews, Books - The Independent
 

democracyNotMurder

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The RUC's failure was not appropriately dealing with those who were determined to murder innocent people. Once, there was a time where the force could proportionately reflect the balance of the community. The IRA soon put an end to that however by attacking all the innocent, upstanding Roman Catholic people who only wanted to protect their community.

The failure of Irish Republicans to recognise the problems that *they* caused will forever haunt their cause and prevent any worldwide integrity.
 

Scipio

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The RUC's failure was not appropriately dealing with those who were determined to murder innocent people. Once, there was a time where the force could proportionately reflect the balance of the community. The IRA soon put an end to that however by attacking all the innocent, upstanding Roman Catholic people who only wanted to protect their community.
Simplistic in the extreme.

The Provisional IRA was a product of the Northern state not a cause. The RUC's failure stemmed from on high and existed long before the Provos came about.

I'd suggest going back and looking into the history of people like Dawson Bates for a more rounded view.
 

Hegarty's Crowd

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The RIC was not "a brutal force" by any means. It was in fact an excellent Police force, arguably one of best in the world during the time it was in existence. Well trained, well led, highly-disciplined and utterly impartial, it set the standard for policing in the rest of the UK and I'd venture throughout the world. Throughout it's existence Ireland was a uniquely peaceful and law-abiding country and it was said that "a woman could walk the full length and breadth of Ireland alone without fear of hindrance or molestation" Even Dan Breen, of all people, commented that the RIC were "as fine and decent a body of men as you would find in all Ireland".

So, in short, you're talking b*ll*cks.
To claim the RIC was not a brutal force by any means, was impartial, and that Ireland was a uniquely peaceful and law-abiding country during its existence is ridiculous. It is also incomparable to the contemporary unarmed UK police forces.

Selected on the basis of their large physiques, it was a politicised armed militarised force which acted as intimidating bullying enforcers and intelligence gatherers of the British system. Amongst its first duties was the forcible seizure of Tithes accompanied by the Orange Yeomanry for the Anglican Church resulting in the shooting dead of 12 people and the wounding of 20, followed by other similar instances with the British army. Then there was their participation with the bailiffs in the Land war evictions; the opening fire into certain unarmed crowds with impunity, or standing idly from a distance to permit acceptable rampaging mobs to attack others; their baton-wielding alongside the Dublin Met during the Lockout; and the spying on and recommendations leading to the loss of livelihood of those they deemed political undesirables - eventually escalating into beatings and assassination.

"A woman could walk the full length and breadth of Ireland alone without fear of hindrance or molestation."
A search of the Assizees records of the period in question paints quite a different story.
 

sgtharper

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To claim the RIC was not a brutal force by any means, was impartial, and that Ireland was a uniquely peaceful and law-abiding country during its existence is ridiculous. It is also incomparable to the contemporary unarmed UK police forces.

Selected on the basis of their large physiques, it was a politicised armed militarised force which acted as intimidating bullying enforcers and intelligence gatherers of the British system.
Yes, in those far-off days people thought it an advantage for policemen to be physically imposing, in fact his remained the case until comparitively recently. The City Of London Police in particular were noted for a height requirement for men of 6ft. Nothing sinister about it. Yes they were armed, but in a country prone to faction-fighting (and I'm talking about the early 1800's here) and the occasional rebellion that's hardly surprising. As for being "politicised", no more so than any other police force and no more than the Garda, for example, are now. The police of any country owe their allegiance to the state, if you oppose that state, then you wil consider the police to be an arm of it
and thererfore "politicised". To call them intimidating, bullying enforcers is purely subjective, as for "intelligence gatherers", what do you expect, that constables ignore and fail to report evidence or information on criminals and trouble makers?

Amongst its first duties was the forcible seizure of Tithes accompanied by the Orange Yeomanry for the Anglican Church resulting in the shooting dead of 12 people and the wounding of 20, followed by other similar instances with the British army. Then there was their participation with the bailiffs in the Land war evictions; the opening fire into certain unarmed crowds with impunity, or standing idly from a distance to permit acceptable rampaging mobs to attack others; their baton-wielding alongside the Dublin Met during the Lockout; and the spying on and recommendations leading to the loss of livelihood of those they deemed political undesirables - eventually escalating into beatings and assassination.A search of the Assizees records of the period in question paints quite a different story.
The police in any country are ofter required to assist in controversial and unpopular actions as part of their duties. I don't imagine that they particulary enjoyed having to be present at evictions, especially as the vast majority of them were farmer's sons themselves and would have had some sympathy with those being evicted. What you're complaiing about here is policemen doing their job, and you're allowing your own political perspective and prejudices to colour your opinion. The job of the police is to uphold and enforce the law and maintain the peace without fear or favour, the RIC did that and did it well. I'm well aware that in the W.of I. a number of officers, sickened at the cold-blooded murder of large numbers of their colleagues, committed crimes including murder, but they didn't initiate it, appalling and unforgiveable though their conduct was.
The fact remains that for most of their existence the RIC were an excellent police force, respected by the people they served and a popular career choice for many an Irish Catholic.
 

niropiro

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Dan Breen had personal experience of the gallantry of the RIC.
A very respected local policeman who doggedly and successfully pursued the local IRA was finally abducted by Breen's men after one of their party was facing execution by British forces.
After their comrade was killed, they decided to kill the policeman in reprisal.
He was ordered at gunpoint to dig his own grave.
One of the IRA accidentally shot himself and in danger of bleeding to death had his life saved by the RIC man who tended to his wounds.
After this he was order back into his grave, allowed to say his final prayers and give his executioners his final letters to his family.
He was then shot in the chest and as he lay dying he asked them to shoot him again in the head which they did.
The incident had a huge effect on the IRA men especially Dan Breen.
 

Hegarty's Crowd

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Hi sgtharper, thanks for your interesting and cordial reply.

My current opinions are essentially research-derived rather than politically clouded and I'm fully receptive to be corrected in response to any reasonable counter-evidence.

Thus far the majority of people I've come across who've made such glorifying claims about the alleged brilliance of RIC policing - are nostalgic descendents of RIC members.

If I may I’d like to return to a few points you made.

A – That the RIC was not "a brutal force" by any means.

I believe it was by some means such as my aforementioned examples

B - I don’t consider a police force utterly impartial when (as it did) it permitted crimes to be committed by politically acceptable mobs against other groups which it deemed unacceptable. That is simply not impartial policing.

C – ‘That it set the standard for policing in the rest of the UK and I'd venture throughout the world.’

What great achievements did the RIC make? Other than making impoverished people homeless and firing bullets into hostile crowds, the crushing of the 1867 rising resulted from England's police information and the notorious super-grasses’ nationwide finger-pointing jail tour. The Special Branch was an incompetent joke. They were all caught with their feet up in 1916. As soon as the shots fired in 1919 they fired a few back and then called in the help of the British army, Auxies & Tans, and then later played either for both sides, or resigned or defected.

How did the RIC set the standards for UK policing?
 
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Provisional Sinn Féin fully support the armed wing of the British state in Ireland. Both the Guards and the RUC are cut from the same cloth as the RIC, a Brutal force which was pieced together to ensure British interests were met in Ireland, both forces continue to act as the RIC although in a more subtle manner.

Are there two of you or are you just two-faced?

The Gardai Siochana was not mentioned in the OP so why are you even mentioning them?
 

merle haggard

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Brian Arthurs went public in the tribune last week firmly distancing himelf from both sinn fein and the British police and claims a great many others have followed him out of the sinn fein organisation over the issue of supporting and informing to the British forces .

People did not die or take up arms for equality. They did so for Irish freedom'

Brian Arthurs and Peter McCaughey left Sinn Féin after the party signalled it was serious about working with the PSNI. They're now leading figures in a growing 'independent' republican movement, writes Suzanne Breen, Northern Editor

One of the most senior ex-Provisional IRA figures in the North has said that the nationalist community should not pass on information or "collaborate in any way" with the PSNI.


In an exclusive interview with the Sunday Tribune, Brian Arthurs, a former commander of the Tyrone Brigade, said Sinn Féin and "other constitutional nationalist parties" were wrong to say that the PSNI should be supported.


'People did not die or take up arms for equality. They did so for Irish freedom'
 

factual

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Police reform was part of the GFA and support for the police was part of Patten, and Sinn Féin support both the GFA and Patten.
 


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