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Do WT Cosgrave and Cummann na nGaedhael get enough credit for the founding of the state 1922-1932?


RahenyFG

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I ask you do WT Cosgrave and Cummann na nGaedhael get enough credit for the founding of the state 1922-1932? Remember the backdrop they faced when founding the state in 1922. An ongoing civil war, the country split down the middle, lives being lost on a high scale for a small population and poor infrastructure due to the War of Independence and the Civil War.

There were the huge positives

Winning the civil war in 1923(no doubt FFers will say the anti treaty side just stopped fighting when they actually lost)
The setting up of ESB in 1927
Joining the League of Nations and gaining some diplomatic independence from Britain
Balanced budgets throughout the tenure, rare in this state's existence
The setting up of the Irish Sugar Company and the Agricultural Credit Corporation
The Land Act which gave farmers the chance to buy their land after a long time renting/being at the mercy of landlords.
Even the Act brought in 1927 to force Fianna Fáil into the Dail was a brave move by Cosgrave which showed he had the country and not party politics at heart.

Of course there were the negatives like the cut to the Old Age pension by Ernest Blythe and the high unemployment and emigration towards the end of the 1920s.

When Cosgrave and Cumann na nGaedhael left government in 1932 having handed power over peacefully to old rivals FF when many anticipated warfare , the seeds had been sown for a democracy and a peaceful enough state with infrastructure in place.

It's rare to hear Cosgrave's name mentioned in the echelons of great taoisigh. Maybe it's the long passing of time or the bad memories towards the end of his government that have erased the good done earlier in the government term.
 


Eoin Coir

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of course they dont. Devilera and FF claim credit for setting up the state here, when in fact they tried to destroy it, damaging buildings, railway lines,it was against new state the civil war was directed. Dev spoke of wading through Irish blood, and he advanced things not one bit when he finally got into power.
 

electoralshock

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Fine Gael do not even commemorate him. They would be the successors of WT Cosgrave. The romanticism around Michael Collins is more attractive to the party.

I believe Cosgrave should get more credit for building a firm foundation. It's what happened after became the problem with Ireland.
 

RahenyFG

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For me after Sean Lemass, WT Cosgrave is the second best Taoiseach we had.
 

Ulster-Lad

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Lovely, a thread to commiserate the West Brit foundation of FG. Did this group also execute it's fellow Irishmen?

They were also happy to abandon the North.
 

stakerwallace

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Lovely, a thread to commiserate the West Brit foundation of FG. Did this group also execute it's fellow Irishmen?

They were also happy to abandon the North.

Of course they could have fought on for the North: the road to perdition however.
 

RahenyFG

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Lovely, a thread to commiserate the West Brit foundation of FG. Did this group also execute it's fellow Irishmen?

They were also happy to abandon the North.
FF also executed IRA men, more so than Cumann na nGaedael, in their first 10 years in government.
 

wombat

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Its a pretty silly thread to start on here, just giving an opportunity to the resident pub patriots to show their ignorance of history.
 

RahenyFG

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Its a pretty silly thread to start on here, just giving an opportunity to the resident pub patriots to show their ignorance of history.
It's not silly. WT Cosgrave and the work of the 1922-1932 C na nG government has been forgotten. This thread asks why.
 

Ulster-Lad

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FF also executed IRA men, more so than Cumann na nGaedael, in their first 10 years in government.
His reputation suffered after he ordered the execution without trial of republican prisoners during the civil war. In all 77 republicans were executed by the Free State between November 1922 and the end of the war in May 1923, including Robert Erskine Childers, Liam Mellowes and Rory O'Connor, far more than the 14 IRA Volunteers the British executed in the War of Independence.
W. T. Cosgrave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Eoin Coir

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FF & Dev did best to downplay likes of Collins and Cosgrove. Remember Mary Hanafin as Education Minister sent 2 copies of Ferriter's Book " Judging Dev" to every school in the state, at our expense of course. Thats how we operate here.
 

Nedz Newt

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Tim Pat Coogan wrote a biog of De Valera (bit of a hatchet job) but in that book he quotes Vivion de Valera attributing a remark to his father, along the lines of : "We can attack them (CnaG) all we wish, but when we got in and saw the files it was obvious they did a very good job".

Why do FG(/CnaG) commemorate Collins (who strictly speaking doesn't belong to them) but not it;s own former leaders such as Cosgrave or Mulcahy.

Sheepsihness over civil war atrocities?
 

rockofcashel

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These are the sort of threads that annoy the hell out of me.. especially when they are started by FG supporters.

Cumann na nGaedhal played no hand, act nor part in founding this State.. just as Michael Collins was never a member of Fine Gael.

Both of these are taken as given by a majority of FGers, despite not being in any way true at all.

But we'll stick to the Cumann na nGaedheal fantasy for now, as that's what the thread is about.

The only political involved in the founding of the Irish Free State, was Sinn Fein.

Sinn Fein then split during the Treaty debates.

The Treaty was passed, and the Sinn Fein party split. De Valera as leader of the party walked out, and those that remained, lead by Cosgrave stayed inside, running the new State.

But they were doing so, without the backing of any political party. Basically, that State was run by a Cabinet with no democratic legitimacy at all.

(I am not making any judgement around that, just stating the factual position at the time)

Kevin O Higgins was the Cabinet member who argued most for the need to form a political party to give the illusion of "democratic legitimacy" to the Government of the day, but he was actually resisted at the time by other Cabinet members, who feared that they would be undermined in making decisions by a party which could be infiltrated by anti-Treatyites.

Eventually O Higgins persuaded them to set the party up, but the party had no influence on Government decisions.

The party also had a problem in attracting members, as though many people didn't want to go "back to war", they were also still sympathetic to the idea of a 32 county Irish Republic.

However, O Higgins came up with a great idea to boost membership of the newly formed Cumann na nGaedhael... he used the Land Commission land which the new Government got control of.

This land was broken up and given out to farmers.. but many of those farmers had to join the new party, to have any chance of getting their hands on the land. This is historically why FG are supported by the large farming community.

Go read some of your history Raheny
 

DrNightdub

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But they were doing so, without the backing of any political party. Basically, that State was run by a Cabinet with no democratic legitimacy at all.
There are very valid questions around interpreting the results of the 1922 election, but to ignore it completely is pushing the boat out a bit.
 

CarnivalOfAction

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These are the sort of threads that annoy the hell out of me.. especially when they are started by FG supporters.

Cumann na nGaedhal played no hand, act nor part in founding this State.. just as Michael Collins was never a member of Fine Gael.

Both of these are taken as given by a majority of FGers, despite not being in any way true at all.

But we'll stick to the Cumann na nGaedheal fantasy for now, as that's what the thread is about.

The only political involved in the founding of the Irish Free State, was Sinn Fein.

Sinn Fein then split during the Treaty debates.

The Treaty was passed, and the Sinn Fein party split. De Valera as leader of the party walked out, and those that remained, lead by Cosgrave stayed inside, running the new State.

But they were doing so, without the backing of any political party. Basically, that State was run by a Cabinet with no democratic legitimacy at all.

(I am not making any judgement around that, just stating the factual position at the time)

Kevin O Higgins was the Cabinet member who argued most for the need to form a political party to give the illusion of "democratic legitimacy" to the Government of the day, but he was actually resisted at the time by other Cabinet members, who feared that they would be undermined in making decisions by a party which could be infiltrated by anti-Treatyites.

Eventually O Higgins persuaded them to set the party up, but the party had no influence on Government decisions.

The party also had a problem in attracting members, as though many people didn't want to go "back to war", they were also still sympathetic to the idea of a 32 county Irish Republic.

However, O Higgins came up with a great idea to boost membership of the newly formed Cumann na nGaedhael... he used the Land Commission land which the new Government got control of.

This land was broken up and given out to farmers.. but many of those farmers had to join the new party, to have any chance of getting their hands on the land. This is historically why FG are supported by the large farming community.

Go read some of your history Raheny
Why would anyone want to give credit to murdering thugs like Cosgrave, Mulcahy & Higgins? Apart from murdering 77 unarmed prisoners and cowardly abandoning Irish citizens in the OSC to the mercies of Orange rule, they set up a FFailed, backward, conservative statelet which handed control of health & education to the kiddy-fiddlers of the RCC. Their legacy can best be seen in the actions of Cosgrave's son in voting against his own government's proposal to allow contraception to married couples! And his grandson who, as FG cllr, engaged in the rezoning corruption which helped cause our present FFiasco.
 

DeGaulle 2.0

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Lovely, a thread to commiserate the West Brit foundation of FG. Did this group also execute it's fellow Irishmen?

They were also happy to abandon the North.
No-one wanted to abandon the North. The only nationalists who wanted Tyrone and Fermanagh in Northern Ireland were the nationalists of west Belfast who wanted as many nationalists in Northern Ireland as possible.
 

DeGaulle 2.0

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These are the sort of threads that annoy the hell out of me.. especially when they are started by FG supporters.

Cumann na nGaedhal played no hand, act nor part in founding this State.. just as Michael Collins was never a member of Fine Gael.

Both of these are taken as given by a majority of FGers, despite not being in any way true at all.

But we'll stick to the Cumann na nGaedheal fantasy for now, as that's what the thread is about.

The only political involved in the founding of the Irish Free State, was Sinn Fein.

Sinn Fein then split during the Treaty debates.

The Treaty was passed, and the Sinn Fein party split. De Valera as leader of the party walked out, and those that remained, lead by Cosgrave stayed inside, running the new State.

But they were doing so, without the backing of any political party. Basically, that State was run by a Cabinet with no democratic legitimacy at all.

(I am not making any judgement around that, just stating the factual position at the time)


Kevin O Higgins was the Cabinet member who argued most for the need to form a political party to give the illusion of "democratic legitimacy" to the Government of the day, but he was actually resisted at the time by other Cabinet members, who feared that they would be undermined in making decisions by a party which could be infiltrated by anti-Treatyites.

Eventually O Higgins persuaded them to set the party up, but the party had no influence on Government decisions.

The party also had a problem in attracting members, as though many people didn't want to go "back to war", they were also still sympathetic to the idea of a 32 county Irish Republic.

However, O Higgins came up with a great idea to boost membership of the newly formed Cumann na nGaedhael... he used the Land Commission land which the new Government got control of.

This land was broken up and given out to farmers.. but many of those farmers had to join the new party, to have any chance of getting their hands on the land. This is historically why FG are supported by the large farming community.

Go read some of your history Raheny
rockofcashel,

it is ridiculous to say that the Dáil did not have democratic legitimacy.

MR. M. COLLINS (after the Treaty vote in the Dáil) said:
Now, in all countries in times of change—when countries are passing from peace to war or war to peace—they have had their most trying times on an occasion like this. Whether we are right or whether we are wrong in the view of future generations there is this: that we now are entitled to a chance; all the responsibility will fall upon us of taking over the machinery of government from the enemy. In times of change like that, when countries change from peace to war or war to peace, there are always elements that make for disorder and that make for chaos. That is as true of Ireland as of any other country; for in that respect all countries are the same. Now, what I suggest is that—I suppose we could regard it like this—that we are a kind of a majority party and that the others are a minority party; that is all I regard it as at present; and upon us, I suppose, will be the responsibility of proving our mark, to borrow a term from our President. Well, if we could form some kind of joint Committee to carry on— for carrying through the arrangements one way or another—I think that is what we ought to do. Now, I only want to say this to the people who are against us—and there are good people against us —so far as I am concerned this is not a question of politics, nor never has been. I make the promise publicly to the Irish nation that I will do my best, and though some people here have said hard things of me—I would not stand things like that said about the other side—I have just as high a regard for some of them, and am prepared to do as much for them, now as always. The President knows how I tried to do my best for him
 
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Honecker

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Cumman na nGaedheal were extremely conservative in government. With the exception of Ard na Crusha they they absolutely nothing to develop the economy or create jobs. Cumman na nGaedheal wanted to build the Irish economy around the export of live cattle. They turned a blind eye to poverty, emigration and bad housing. They were also more than happy to let the Bishops dictate on issues of morality. At least FF attempted to create industry and build new homes. Cumann na nGeadheal didn't give a sh1te.
 

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