• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please us viua the Contact us link in the footer.

Doctors vs. Bankers


Malbekh

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
3,032
Good morning.

In today's Irish Independent, an article by Eilish O'Regan highlights that hospitals are finding it increasingly difficult to fill posts for 'yellow pack' consultancy jobs. Although the evidence is not completely convincing in that only 21 of the 104 offers had to be re-advertised, it is backed up with anecdotal evidence and on a personal level, it's what I am hearing on the ground too.

You can read more about it here €116,000 hospital jobs go unfilled - Independent.ie or indeed, buy the paper and support Irish jobs (regardless of your opinion on the newspaper).

The central issue is that the jobs in question have seen their salaries slashed - consultants for public only patients from €166,000 to €116,000 and public/private from €156,000 to €109,000. As you may be aware, once your salary is in excess of €33,000 you are effectively paying a tax rate of 52% after all the USC charges etc. are taken into account.

It comes as no surprise then, that doctors, particularly home-grown ones (expensively educated by the Irish taxpayer) are gladly fleeing this country heading for destinations where their skills are remunerated fairly, and/or where the politics of hospital life come second to patients' welfare.

This brings into question the quality of personnel that the HSE are hiring. After all, to get the best person for a job as critical as a consultant is, you want to ensure that you get a strong set of applicants, and proceed through a rigorous process to find the best candidate. I doubt very much that the HSE would be able to commentate on their recruitment process on an individual basis, but if only one or two applied for the job in question, are we merely 'making do' with whatever person walks off the street who has the academic qualifications, but not the ability?

Remember, apart from providing life-saving operations, consultants are also critical in the prevention of serious illnesses by spotting and eliminating early signs of diseases, that provide economic trauma to the HSE and personal trauma for the patient.

My basic point is this though. Regardless of what side of the fence politically you are on, people must realise that failing to provide consultants with salaries that attract the best rather than the dross, will have a detrimental and far more costly effect on our health system, and yes, before people jump up and down, this includes nurses too.

Why then, whenever we question the salaries paid to financial advisers, political advisers, staff in NAMA, staff in the Irish banking system, we are always told that without these kinds of salaries, we would never attract the quality of personnel required to run these institutions effectively?

Are financial consultants more important than medical consultants?
 


ger12

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
48,254
So even though over the years we paid the best bankers the highest salaries in this country, the mess we're in now is because ...

And the best doctors are those who demand the highest salaries? Really?
 

44percent

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
2,230
The salary and conditions are part of the problem.if you give people at public expense highly sought after skills and exportable skills without protecting your investment you end up in the current situation.
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
223,358
Good morning.

In today's Irish Independent, an article by Eilish O'Regan highlights that hospitals are finding it increasingly difficult to fill posts for 'yellow pack' consultancy jobs. Although the evidence is not completely convincing in that only 21 of the 104 offers had to be re-advertised, it is backed up with anecdotal evidence and on a personal level, it's what I am hearing on the ground too.

You can read more about it here €116,000 hospital jobs go unfilled - Independent.ie or indeed, buy the paper and support Irish jobs (regardless of your opinion on the newspaper).

The central issue is that the jobs in question have seen their salaries slashed - consultants for public only patients from €166,000 to €116,000 and public/private from €156,000 to €109,000. As you may be aware, once your salary is in excess of €33,000 you are effectively paying a tax rate of 52% after all the USC charges etc. are taken into account.

It comes as no surprise then, that doctors, particularly home-grown ones (expensively educated by the Irish taxpayer) are gladly fleeing this country heading for destinations where their skills are remunerated fairly, and/or where the politics of hospital life come second to patients' welfare.

This brings into question the quality of personnel that the HSE are hiring. After all, to get the best person for a job as critical as a consultant is, you want to ensure that you get a strong set of applicants, and proceed through a rigorous process to find the best candidate. I doubt very much that the HSE would be able to commentate on their recruitment process on an individual basis, but if only one or two applied for the job in question, are we merely 'making do' with whatever person walks off the street who has the academic qualifications, but not the ability?

Remember, apart from providing life-saving operations, consultants are also critical in the prevention of serious illnesses by spotting and eliminating early signs of diseases, that provide economic trauma to the HSE and personal trauma for the patient.

My basic point is this though. Regardless of what side of the fence politically you are on, people must realise that failing to provide consultants with salaries that attract the best rather than the dross, will have a detrimental and far more costly effect on our health system, and yes, before people jump up and down, this includes nurses too.

Why then, whenever we question the salaries paid to financial advisers, political advisers, staff in NAMA, staff in the Irish banking system, we are always told that with these kinds of salaries, we would never attract the quality of personnel required to run these institutions effectively?

Are financial consultants more important than medical consultants?
Except in the public service, generally speaking the market dictates salary levels, in the PS it has tended to be the unions doing the dictating, now it is affordability, neither of which have the efficiency of the market for sorting these issues at a sustainable & optimal level.
 

44percent

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
2,230
So even though over the years we paid the best bankers the highest salaries in this country, the mess we're in now is because ...
They paid themselves because they said they were the best. If they said it, it must be true.
 

Disillusioned democrat

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
15,736
....and best paid politicians and best paid political advisors, etc., the list goes on and on.

Our nation doesn't put a value on hard work and qualifications, only on chancers, because people want to believe that someday they'll get the big bucks by being a chancer but have no interest in putting in the time and effort to qualify as something useful.
 

Malbekh

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
3,032
And the best doctors are those who demand the highest salaries? Really?
We're not talking about the highest salaries here, we're talking about the lowest salaries paid for consultant jobs that either aren't been filled or are being filled by people merely because they were the only one to apply for the job. The point specifically is the explanation why the government are paying enormous salaries to its financial consultants - down to 'market rates' contrasts with the salaries paid to medical consultants down to 'what we can afford'. Either it's one or the other.
 

ger12

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
48,254
We're not talking about the highest salaries here, we're talking about the lowest salaries paid for consultant jobs that either aren't been filled or are being filled by people merely because they were the only one to apply for the job. The point specifically is the explanation why the government are paying enormous salaries to its financial consultants - down to 'market rates' contrasts with the salaries paid to medical consultants down to 'what we can afford'. Either it's one or the other.
And you'd rather we continue to spend enormous salaries on consultants and bankers?
 
Last edited:

Mr. Bumble

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
18,252
Irish Public Sector -

Employees: 285,000 Budget 2013 - Statement on the Estimates by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.
Employees earning 100k+: 6,000 (of which, 3,000 are consultants) Obsession with public service allowances overlooks salary cuts already achieved - News Debate | Opinion & Discussion |The Irish Times - Thu, Oct 04, 2012.


Irish Banking Sector -

Employees 29,000 Address by Minister Rabbitte to the Irish Bankers Federation National Banking Conference - Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources
Employees earning 100k+: 6,400 6,400 staff at bailed out banks earn over


Conclusion: If you work in the banking sector you are ten times more likely to be earning 100k+ than if you are a public servant.
 

RobertW

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2011
Messages
20,483
Conclusion: If you work in the banking sector you are ten times more likely to be earning 100k+ than if you are a public servant.
Corollary to conclusion: Ireland values money ten times more than the health of its people.
 

Mr. Bumble

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
18,252
Corollary to conclusion: Ireland values money ten times more than the health of its people.
That's certainly a possible conclusion.
 

ger12

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
48,254
Irish Public Sector -

Employees: 285,000 Budget 2013 - Statement on the Estimates by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.
Employees earning 100k+: 6,000 (of which, 3,000 are consultants) Obsession with public service allowances overlooks salary cuts already achieved - News Debate | Opinion & Discussion |The Irish Times - Thu, Oct 04, 2012.


Irish Banking Sector -

Employees 29,000 Address by Minister Rabbitte to the Irish Bankers Federation National Banking Conference - Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources
Employees earning 100k+: 6,400 6,400 staff at bailed out banks earn over


Conclusion: If you work in the banking sector you are ten times more likely to be earning 100k+ than if you are a public servant.
Are hospital consultants who enjoy both public and private practices in that category? Really?
 

ger12

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
48,254
Corollary to conclusion: Ireland values money ten times more than the health of its people.
And how many bankers are you talking about?

Oh and "Healthcare in Ireland has improved markedly in the three years since the Health Service Executive (HSE) launched its transformation programme in 2006, new figures have shown.

According to the 2009 Euro Health Consumer Index, the country's health service is currently ranked 13th out of 33 European health services."


:roll:

Aviva - Irish healthcare system shows major improvement
 
Last edited:

Mr. Bumble

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
18,252
Are hospital consultants who enjoy both public and private practices in that category? Really?
The official figure for consultants employed directly in the PS is 3,000 approx.
 

RobertW

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2011
Messages
20,483
And how many bankers are you talking about?

Oh and "Healthcare in Ireland has improved markedly in the three years since the Health Service Executive (HSE) launched its transformation programme in 2006, new figures have shown.

According to the 2009 Euro Health Consumer Index, the country's health service is currently ranked 13th out of 33 European health services."

:roll:

Aviva - Irish healthcare system shows major improvement
Nurses, doctors and consultants are leaving.

The HSE cannot fill vacant jobs.
 

ger12

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
48,254
Nurses, doctors and consultants are leaving.

The HSE cannot fill vacant jobs.
Don't hit young nurses, treat NHCD's better and if they don't wish to hang around after the State has paid to educate them ask them to give a "contribution" towards the cost of their education, pay consultants on par with the NHS. Or will you suggest that NHS consultants are not the best in the World?
 

ger12

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
48,254

Malbekh

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
3,032
And you'd rather we continue to spend enormous salaries on consultants and bankers?
I don't think you've read the OP correctly, or perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I would have thought the logic was sound enough for people to understand. The government are saying that in order to attract the best financial consultants to work in the public sector like NAMA, AIB, BOI etc they need to pay market prices. Clearly in the medical profession they don't hold to that mantra. So either you pay consultants the going rate, and attract the best you can get, or you reduce the salaries of employees attached to the state's financial infrastructure.

You can't have both.

I would have thought it obvious that having the best consultants reduces your health expenditure because operations are more successful, diagnosis has a better chance of being correct, and treatment regimes are more appropriate. Therefore both the State pays less in the long term (no repeat procedures, illnesses are caught earlier, correct medicines proscribed) and the patients suffer less trauma.

If you want me to explain this more simply for you, please let me know.
 
Last edited:

RobertW

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 11, 2011
Messages
20,483
Don't hit young nurses, treat NHCD's better and if they don't wish to hang around after the State has paid to educate them ask them to give a "contribution" towards the cost of their education, pay consultants on par with the NHS. Or will you suggest that NHS consultants are not the best in the World?
Why should emigrating nurses and doctors be asked to give a contribution any more so than emigrating lawyers and accountants?

Seriously - I love this. . . . .when the salary was reduced the attitude was . . If they don't like it they can leave.

Now that they're leaving it's a case of "How dare they leave?. . . What about the cost of their education?"
 

New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top