Does Ireland apply / enforce restrictions available in EU laws & Directives? NO .. at what cost?

robut

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Does Ireland apply / enforce restrictions available in EU laws & Directives? Yes / No?

I posted the following within another thread here but I think its about time we had a debate about this in its own thread.

It would appear IRELAND ( and the UK ) do not apply or enforce restrictions available in EU laws and directives enough AND THEN JUST BLAME THE EU for the troubles caused ( at least many IRISH might, not necessarily official IRELAND )?

Lets take the following:

Pregnant mum helped steal guitars worth €6k by hiding them up her skirt


A pregnant mother-of-one stole high-performance electric guitars from music shops by hiding them up her long skirt after her husband passed them to her.

Madelina Iancu (19) and husband Veniamin Raducanu (23) stole two guitars, worth €6,000, in two visits to Dublin city centre shops on consecutive days, a court heard.

The couple, from Romania, had been in Ireland since February and neither had any previous convictions.
Should they stay or should they go??

In this case lets look at restrictions around FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT by EU members.

Do we apply the restrictions around FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT? .. If not, thats not the EUs fault, its ours surely?

As per restrictions around stays over 3 Months ( in place since 2004 BTW ):

Free movement of persons | EU fact sheets | European Parliament

- For stays of over three months: EU citizens and their family members — if not working — must have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. Union citizens do not need residence permits, although Member States may require them to register with the authorities. Family members of Union citizens who are not nationals of a Member State must apply for a residence permit, valid for the duration of their stay or a five-year period.

- Restrictions on the right of entry and the right of residence: Union citizens or members of their family may be expelled from the host Member State on grounds of public policy, public security or public health. Guarantees are provided to ensure that such decisions are not taken on economic grounds, comply with the proportionality principle and are based on personal conduct, among others.

- Finally, the directive enables Member States to adopt the necessary measures to refuse, terminate or withdraw any right conferred in the event of abuse of rights or fraud, such as marriages of convenience.
Surely the above EU LEGAL RESTRICTIONS around Freedom of Movement would apply to these two Romanians? Via abuse of rights or fraud, public security?? Via they here over 3 months .. are they without a job AND have they personal means to support themselves??

Their are restrictions ... I think a big Q to ask of Ireland ( and UK? ) is do we impliment the restrictions properly & to our benefit at all? .. If not, thats NOT the EUs fault?
 
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robut

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Then we come to Ireland, the UK and UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT ...

Here are all the EU countries in brief and how they practice social welfare for other EU citizens ( I will say this article is from 2013, have things changed here since? ):

Benefits in Europe: country by country - Telegraph

Here are a few differing examples, read article for all:

BELGIUM
- Health care Available after a year
- Child benefit £115 a month, available immediately
- Unemployment benefit Have to have previously worked in Belgium
- Housing benefit No national scheme; amounts vary regionally.

BULGARIA
- Health care Free emergency care immediately; other treatments only available if you pay social insurance
- Child benefit Targeted schemes restricted to Bulgarian citizens
- Unemployment benefit Minimum of nine months of working in the country required to qualify
- Housing benefit Immediate monthly allowance buzt only if you have a local authority home already


DENMARK
- Health care Free, available immediately
- Child benefit Up to £161 a month available after 12 months
- Unemployment benefit Minimum of one year’s work required to qualify
- Housing benefit No equivalent scheme


FRANCE
- Health care Only available with a card proving entitlement, issued to residents
- Child benefit Immediate payment, but only for parents with more than one child
- Unemployment benefit Four-month qualifying period
- Housing benefit Immediate; scheme based on house size and local factors


IRELAND
- Health care Free after living in Ireland for three consecutive years, but free immediately to UK citizens
- Child benefit £110 per month available immediately
- Unemployment benefit £160 per week available immediately
- Housing benefit Immediate rent supplement providing short-term support

Ireland and the UK are pretty much the only countries IN THE EU who have from the get go, unconditional Unemployment Benefit. All others have conditions and in the main you can only get the UB after a good few months / up to a year or more qualifying period.

Aswell as this and my previous post about AFTER 3 MONTHS if you dont have a job AND dont have own means to support your self YOUR OUT ...

I am really p*ssed off at the lazy in media and here and in the UK saying freedom of movement w/o conditions, open unemployment benefit and the like ARE ALL THE FAULT OF THE EU. It is not .. It is IRELANDS and THE UKs choice in how they apply, do not apply these rules and restrictions.

Look at Belgium in 2014:

BELGIUM SENDS ‘BURDEN’ EU CITIZENS LETTERS ASKING THEM TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY

Some 2,712 citizens of other EU countries have been asked to leave Belgium for being an unreasonable burden on the welfare system.

The number of people being told to go has more than tripled in three years.

Even having a job is not enough to be allowed to stay,
EDIT:

IT WOULD APPEAR THAT THINGS MIGHT HAVE CHANGED IN THIS REGARD FOR IRELAND .. SINCE 2014??


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/social_assistance_payments/residency_requirements_for_social_assistance_in_ireland.html

Around this HRC thing - habitual residence condition
 
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robut

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A Q i would have related to above .. WHY is Ireland doing things this way, like NOT sending home those Romanians straight away? They obviously are contravening the EU restrictions here?

WHY is Ireland giving immediate Unemplyment Benefit without having a qualified period as is practiced by most other EU countries WITHIN EU LAW??

WHY are the UK belly aching about unfettered imigration? As in the OP restrictions are available within EU freedom of Movement directives that would have stopped this from happening. Its the UKs fault they didnt enforce these restrictions, NOT THE EUs fault?
 
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I have friends who returned to Ireland to be told they had no entitlement to any benefits at all. Ditto a Scottish friend. Zippy.
 

robut

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I have friends who returned to Ireland to be told they had no entitlement to any benefits at all. Ditto a Scottish friend. Zippy.
Thanks Des. We need to hear this kind of thing.

I, as is the case with many here HAVE big issues with the EU and how its run, BUT I am also ( since Brexit particularly ) more aware that bothe Ireland and the UK tend to conveniently blame the EU for all our woes .. say it is stopping us from this and that .. when in fact - Like Above - it is not.

Restrictions are there. The EU does not stop us from applying them .. thats a choice WE make, surely?
 

Sync

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"Ireland" doesn't blame the EU for this. At all. You've created a poorly worded strawman argument.
 

robut

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"Ireland" doesn't blame the EU for this. At all. You've created a poorly worded strawman argument.
OK, of course I can be wrong here, I am just opening the debate. Note my use of question marks in title and OP. My use of them is to ASK you guys, I am not making definite ascertions .. i dont mean to anyway.

However lets differentiate something. Ireland might not blame the EU, but many IRISH in Ireland do??

It is this Ireland blames the EU is the strawman argument you propose? But do you agree we are not great at implementing restrictions around EU Directives like I illustrate above? Thats surely NOT a straw man argument?

By not implementing restrictions around EU Directives properly we then surely let the door open for misinterpretation around these EU directives and how Irish people might percieve them & their usefulness or not? The average Irish person might not be aware of the lawful restrictions and assume then that the EU is enforcing something that it is not?
 
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Cdebru

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Non Irish EU citizens have more rights in Ireland than Irish citizens, an EU citizen may bring their non EEA partner with them to Ireland and Ireland has to give them residency, Irish citizens have no automatic right to have an non EEA partner join them in Ireland, it is at the discretion of the Irish National immigration service, even if granted permission the Irish citizen will have to pay €300 per year for a GNIB card if they are not married to their partner, EU citizens get the GNIB card for free for their unmarried partner, even if married Irish citizens have to pay €300 per year for any other non EEA family members, EU citizens don't pay anything.

Absolutely ludicrous that you have less rights in your own country than someone who had never set foot in the place before.

BTW I'm not blaming the EU it is firmly the Irish Government that doesn't extend the same rights to its own citizens as it does to EU citizens.
 

Clanrickard

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robut

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Robut Job Seekers Allowance is not available immediately. To get most social welfare allowance you must fulfil he habitual residence requirement. Residence requirements for social assistance in Ireland
Yip .. edited my 2nd post earlier to reflect that, thanks Clanrickard ..

Still wondering have we got any better at deporting EU citizens who dont fit in with Directive 2004/38/EC outlined in the OP? Like Belgium? ( article end of 2nd post )

BTW .. delighted if we are.

I just opened this to debate .. see what we actually CAN blame the EU for and what we cannot .. just jesting :D
 

Sync

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I just opened this to debate .. see what we actually CAN blame the EU for and what we cannot .. just jesting :D
Very little. The EU law is a milder version of the Irish constitutional promise to a kid to have a family.

The EU ruled that you couldn't automatically deport people who had kids simply because they'd broken the law. Now that doesn't mean you can't go through a process, just that you can't do it automatically.

Ireland though is different. Our constitution guarantees the right of the child to have the care of it's parents.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/rights-of-the-child-mean-father-should-not-be-deported-1.550691

Sucks, but the only way to fix it is to have a referendum.
 

Catalpast

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I have friends who returned to Ireland to be told they had no entitlement to any benefits at all. Ditto a Scottish friend. Zippy.
If they have not worked here in the last 3 years then they don't have an 'entitlement' to SW payments

- it is discretionary

- their social Welfare officer will decide what they need

If they are still having difficulty they can try here:

Citizens Information
 

Nemesiscorporation

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I have friends who returned to Ireland to be told they had no entitlement to any benefits at all. Ditto a Scottish friend. Zippy.
Apparently if you are away more than two years on a contract and return, youi are entitled to nothing if Irish. Joan Burton brought that one in.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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If they have not worked here in the last 3 years then they don't have an 'entitlement' to SW payments

- it is discretionary

- their social Welfare officer will decide what they need

If they are still having difficulty they can try here:

Citizens Information
Try getting welfare here in Donegal if Irish. Hurdles is not the word, obstacle course more like it.
 
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If they have not worked here in the last 3 years then they don't have an 'entitlement' to SW payments

- it is discretionary

- their social Welfare officer will decide what they need

If they are still having difficulty they can try here:

Citizens Information
Oh, they've moved beyond the situation by now. I'm just making the point that the picture of people arriving on our shores to be immediately showered with benefits isn't absolutely true. I had to support a friend through the several months it took her to get a job.
 

Shpake

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Very little. The EU law is a milder version of the Irish constitutional promise to a kid to have a family.

The EU ruled that you couldn't automatically deport people who had kids simply because they'd broken the law. Now that doesn't mean you can't go through a process, just that you can't do it automatically.

Ireland though is different. Our constitution guarantees the right of the child to have the care of it's parents.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/rights-of-the-child-mean-father-should-not-be-deported-1.550691

Sucks, but the only way to fix it is to have a referendum.
If they did hold a referendum to change it, bank on a lot of people rejecting the referendum simply so as to spite the government
 

Catalpast

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Oh, they've moved beyond the situation by now. I'm just making the point that the picture of people arriving on our shores to be immediately showered with benefits isn't absolutely true. I had to support a friend through the several months it took her to get a job.
Like I say its discretionary

- its not automatic

- if you arrive here and have no means with a gaggle of wives and kids


- you've hit the Jackpot!
 

Kitty O'Shea

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I have friends who returned to Ireland to be told they had no entitlement to any benefits at all. Ditto a Scottish friend. Zippy.
Returning immigrants have to start again because the DSP have a two year limit on claiming benefits etc if someone leaves the country.
Edit someone else has pointed this out above.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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Returning immigrants have to start again because the DSP have a two year limit on claiming benefits etc if someone leaves the country.
Edit someone else has pointed this out above.
However that rule in practice does not seem to apply to non Irish. It is very noticeable and causes a lot fo resentment amongst Irish.
 


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