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DPP needs to read 24M before Anglo trial can begin. Really?


leftsoc

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Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Messages
2,848
Anglo trial can't proceed until 24 million files are examined - Irish, Business - Independent.ie

The case seems very straightforward to an outsider. There is nithing hidden about what was done, one would assume the trial would really only have to determine if it was legal. Nobody disputes what happened.

So would it really take 6 or 8 years to come to trial in a normal country (as opposed to one with a brilliant legal system that is also incidentally bankrupt).

Never mind all the bull about complexity etc. Why are things supposedly so complicated when it comes to dealing with the rich in court in Ireland.

Is it time fior emergency legislation to review all FF/PD appointments over between 1997 and 2011? Can an establishment appointed by FF/PDs deal with the crisis caused by that government? I mean judges, senior public servants , all of them.

Why are we continuing as if it were business as usual. Why is Labour participating in the farce and actually cheerleading for a return to normalcy when nothing has been addressed let alone fixed.

This state has been raped and the economic rapists are walking free.
 

ruserious

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Joined
Jan 3, 2011
Messages
29,599
The law industry rakes it in again.
 

sic transit

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Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
25,586
It has to be proved in court that these are the guilty ones. Due process and all that. We don't do summary executions any more.
 

Kev408

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Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
5,124
Like the tribunals they'll stretch them out as long as possible so the crimes sink deeper into the public consciousness but primarily to give the accused time to die happily. Remember, this trial is only set to begin in 2014. I seriously doubt it will and I'd be even more surprised if there's a judgement by 2020. If people think we are going to get justice just think of all the elite that Seanie has in his pocket. Besides, that other member of the elite, the barristers, haven't had a gravy train for a while now.
 

crossman

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Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
1,573
It has to be proved in court that these are the guilty ones. Due process and all that. We don't do summary executions any more.
Agreed. Those complaining about delay would be first to complain if someone gets off on a technicality.
 

kimari

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Joined
Jan 16, 2011
Messages
861
Twitter
dont like it
their going for the avalanche defene bury it under a mountain of paperwork.
 

Ribeye

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Jul 12, 2011
Messages
26,306
Total snow job,

The core documents in this case are as follows,

- Loan applications from the Quinns and the Maple 10 (I doubt these exist)

- internal Anglo report for submission to the relevant credit authority seeking approval of the loans, which, given the exposure levels, would be the full Credit Commitee, (these docs probably exist, and would be damn funny to read),

- the minutes of said Credit Commitee, (if there was one)

- the legal report from Anglo's own legal team and/or an external firm as to the legality of the transaction, (probably doesn't exist)

- the Loan offer documentation, (does exist)

- the share acquisition documentation (has to exist),

Probably a couple of hundred or so files, but defo no more than 1,000,

If ye can't make a case with that lot, than you don't have a case,

All the other bits and pieces are just fluff,

24 million files, gimme a break, there's not that many files in the entire bank,

They're just gonna keep dragging this out, in the hope that it might just go away,

And they certainly won't touch it until the Quinn case is over,

Totally corrupt justice system!
 

DuineEile

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 29, 2010
Messages
14,939
Total snow job,

The core documents in this case are as follows,

- Loan applications from the Quinns and the Maple 10 (I doubt these exist)

- internal Anglo report for submission to the relevant credit authority seeking approval of the loans, which, given the exposure levels, would be the full Credit Commitee, (these docs probably exist, and would be damn funny to read),

- the minutes of said Credit Commitee, (if there was one)

- the legal report from Anglo's own legal team and/or an external firm as to the legality of the transaction, (probably doesn't exist)

- the Loan offer documentation, (does exist)

- the share acquisition documentation (has to exist),

Probably a couple of hundred or so files, but defo no more than 1,000,

If ye can't make a case with that lot, than you don't have a case,

All the other bits and pieces are just fluff,

24 million files, gimme a break, there's not that many files in the entire bank,

They're just gonna keep dragging this out, in the hope that it might just go away,

And they certainly won't touch it until the Quinn case is over,

Totally corrupt justice system!
What he said.

D
 

Abaddon

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
3,184
Anglo trial can't proceed until 24 million files are examined - Irish, Business - Independent.ie

The case seems very straightforward to an outsider. There is nithing hidden about what was done, one would assume the trial would really only have to determine if it was legal. Nobody disputes what happened.

So would it really take 6 or 8 years to come to trial in a normal country (as opposed to one with a brilliant legal system that is also incidentally bankrupt).

Never mind all the bull about complexity etc. Why are things supposedly so complicated when it comes to dealing with the rich in court in Ireland.

Is it time fior emergency legislation to review all FF/PD appointments over between 1997 and 2011? Can an establishment appointed by FF/PDs deal with the crisis caused by that government? I mean judges, senior public servants , all of them.

Why are we continuing as if it were business as usual. Why is Labour participating in the farce and actually cheerleading for a return to normalcy when nothing has been addressed let alone fixed.

This state has been raped and the economic rapists are walking free.
Heard this yesterday and immediately thought that they are deliberately burying this case under paper work.
 

borntorum

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2008
Messages
12,805
The law industry rakes it in again.
Explain how. Lawyers in criminal cases don't get paid until a case comes to trial.



Is it time fior emergency legislation to review all FF/PD appointments over between 1997 and 2011? Can an establishment appointed by FF/PDs deal with the crisis caused by that government? I mean judges, senior public servants , all of them.

.
The current DPP was appointed by FG/Lab. So where does that leave your little conspiracy theory?
 

Picasso Republic

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Joined
May 31, 2011
Messages
2,446
For most people its the case of bringing potentially corrupt bankers and businessmen to court and hopefully jailing the guilty ones for bringing the country to its knees.

Fot those deciding, its the case of whether they want to prosecute those they play golf with.
 

diaspora-mick

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 19, 2011
Messages
4,795
Heard this yesterday and immediately thought that they are deliberately burying this case under paper work.
"Mr FitzPatrick (64), Mr McAteer (61) and former managing director of lending Mr Whelan (50) face 16 charges of providing unlawful financial assistance to individuals in July 2008 to buy shares in the bank."

16 charges of providing unlawful financial assistance to individuals.

24 million documents ?

Does not compute ...
 

Grumpy Jack

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Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
6,090
Anglo trial can't proceed until 24 million files are examined - Irish, Business - Independent.ie

The case seems very straightforward to an outsider. There is nithing hidden about what was done, one would assume the trial would really only have to determine if it was legal. Nobody disputes what happened.
This is not an episode of Law and Order - where investigation and trial can all be neatly wrapped up in 45 minutes.

The case may seem straight forward to the man on the street but like most court cases it is anything but.

The prosecution has to gather the evidence that a crime was committed. Then it has to gather evidence that the accused commited said crime. And then it has to present that evidence to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty of said crime(s) - all in the face of a determined defence case to prevent the disprove that case and convince the jury of their client's innocence, or at least provide enough doubt to avoid conviction. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

And it is the defence that raised the issue of the 24 million documents and the time they will need to go through them to build a case to defend their clients.

Are you suggesting they not be given time to study the prosecution case and build that defence?

For every one of those documents that the prosecution presents as evidence, the defence will counter with another document to prove their client's innocence.

Those who suggest this trial may take three to six months when it starts next year are being a tad optimistic, in my view.

So would it really take 6 or 8 years to come to trial in a normal country (as opposed to one with a brilliant legal system that is also incidentally bankrupt).
Certainly in the UK with which we share a common law, adversarial criminal justice system - depending on the soze and the complexity of the case.

You may wish to familiarise yourself with the Jubilee Line Fraud Trial in the UK to see what happens in such a complex case.

Never mind all the bull about complexity etc. Why are things supposedly so complicated when it comes to dealing with the rich in court in Ireland.
So you want the prosecution to cut corners just to get the case to court fast - with all the risks of collapse such a strategy entails?

In the interests of justice, getting the case right is much more important that getting it done quick.

If you had any understanding of the criminal justice system, you would know even the most minor of cases takes months to get heard in the district court and circuit court cases can take years as both sides build their respective cases while waiting for the trial to begin.

Is it time fior emergency legislation to review all FF/PD appointments over between 1997 and 2011? Can an establishment appointed by FF/PDs deal with the crisis caused by that government? I mean judges, senior public servants , all of them.
What exactly are you suggesting here? For if this is a little dig at the DPP and the judge handling this case, both were appointed to their respective positions by the current government.

Why are we continuing as if it were business as usual. Why is Labour participating in the farce and actually cheerleading for a return to normalcy when nothing has been addressed let alone fixed.
Because the criminal justice system - the Gardai, the DPP, the courts - operates independent of the political system - as it should in a democracy. Or would you prefer political trials to satisfy the populist politicians and the howling mob?

This state has been raped and the economic rapists are walking free.
Emotional nonsense which has no place in the administration of justice.

Fiat justicia ruat caelum.
 

Ribeye

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Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
26,306
Remember folks, if these men are found guilty, it automatically means that the Quinns must win their upcoming case against Anglo, which in turn means that the Quinn Group must be returned to them,

As Flanders would say, "this is a diddley of a pickle for the state"

Ha:)
 

borntorum

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2008
Messages
12,805
In other words, you haven't got a clue what you're taking about. Good to see such frank admissions before the bluster.
Exactly. And, of course, if the DPP rushed in and the trial then subsequently collapsed due to prosecution error, we'd have the same legal experts on here claiming that she deliberately brought the trial on too early in order to ensure that the defendants got off
 

Grumpy Jack

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
6,090
Total snow job,

The core documents in this case are as follows,

- Loan applications from the Quinns and the Maple 10 (I doubt these exist)

- internal Anglo report for submission to the relevant credit authority seeking approval of the loans, which, given the exposure levels, would be the full Credit Commitee, (these docs probably exist, and would be damn funny to read),

- the minutes of said Credit Commitee, (if there was one)

- the legal report from Anglo's own legal team and/or an external firm as to the legality of the transaction, (probably doesn't exist)

- the Loan offer documentation, (does exist)

- the share acquisition documentation (has to exist),

Probably a couple of hundred or so files, but defo no more than 1,000,

If ye can't make a case with that lot, than you don't have a case,

All the other bits and pieces are just fluff,

24 million files, gimme a break, there's not that many files in the entire bank,

They're just gonna keep dragging this out, in the hope that it might just go away,

And they certainly won't touch it until the Quinn case is over,

Totally corrupt justice system!
So you are privy to the details of this case and have seen all the evidence that will be presented?
 

Ribeye

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
26,306
So you are privy to the details of this case and have seen all the evidence that will be presented?
I don't need to be, I understand what the charge is, it's quite a simple case really,

Either the lads signed off on the loans, or they didn't,

And if they got some patsy to sign the docs, than he should be charged too,

If the lads were clever enough to keep their names well away from this, than the charges should be dropped, tooth sweet,
 

diaspora-mick

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 19, 2011
Messages
4,795
This is not an episode of Law and Order - where investigation and trial can all be neatly wrapped up in 45 minutes.

The case may seem straight forward to the man on the street but like most court cases it is anything but.

...



Emotional nonsense which has no place in the administration of justice.

Fiat justicia ruat caelum.
24 million documents relating to 16 charges.
That's an average of 1.5 million documents per charge.

Were they providing this allegedly illegal financial assistance in single cent increments ?
Or was there an semi-infinite chain of holding companies involved ?

Fiat justicia ruat caelum :confused:

I was never aware that that old Roman maxim ever had any validity in Ireland.

It was always more a case of:
The statue of Justice,
Mark well her station,
Her face to the Castle
And her arse to the nation.


I think that mutatis mutandis that little piece of doggerel from colonial times still retains a certain poignant relevance in our own day and is far more apt that any ould high-falutin' Roman maxims you might care to spout.
 
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