Dr Peter Boylan, Maria Steen BL, Newstalk and Misinformation

ger12

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Under the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 a pregnancy may be terminated where there's a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother, including the risk of suicide. Where the baby has reached viability (23/24 weeks) there's a duty on the medical team ending the pregnancy to deliver the child alive if possible because of the 8th Amendment as a counter balance. This Government intends repealing this Act in the event of the referendum passing. (Link posted to Act below).


Under head 5 of Simon Harris's proposed Bill, in the case of an immediate risk to the life of the pregnant women or of an immediate risk of serious harm to her health, including mental health, a termination may be carried out up to birth. There is no duty to deliver the child alive and only one medical practitioner needs to sign this off. (Proposed Bill linked below).


In fact termination of pregnancy has only one definition in Simon Harris's Bill "termination of pregnancy means a medical procedure which is intended to end the life of the foetus."

There is no mention in Simon Harris's Bill of any duty to deliver a child alive after viability.

Dr Boylan's interview today on Newstalk contradicts these facts, he misrepresented in my opinion what Maria Steen said and he claims that Maria Steen knowingly misled people last night on Claire Byrne. He said the No side were throwing "dirt".

https://health.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/General-Scheme-for-Publication.pdf

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/35/enacted/en/pdf


He also said that where abortion is legalised that rates of abortion decline.






https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/17/abortion-rate-england-and-wales-five-year-high

https://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/13240/44809/15th_May_2018_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_2/
 
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D

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I think it’s fairly obvious that the govt and the doctors want a no vote.

Whether that is because they realize the proposed legislation is a disaster or, more likely, they never really supported yes in the first place, is academic.

We should sue.
 

damus

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Bit ironic going on about the definition of a ToP when PLDPA itself provided for a termination resulting in the destruction of life of the unborn. There's nothing in that Act about accelerated delivery or viability - but yet the usual suspects had no difficulty with re-interpreting the meaning of that Act. Some even suggested that a ToP were a CS. So some would say we're being consistent and it's come full circle.
 

Cellachán Chaisil

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Under the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 a pregnancy may be terminated where there's a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother, including the risk of suicide. Where the baby has reached viability (23/24 weeks) there's a duty on the medical team ending the pregnancy to deliver the child alive if possible. This Government intends repealing this Act in the event of the referendum passing. (Link posted to Act below).


Under head 5 of Simon Harris's proposed Bill, in the case of an immediate risk to the life of the pregnant women or of an immediate risk of serious harm to her health, including mental health, a termination may be carried out up to birth. There is no duty to deliver the child alive and only one medical practitioner needs to sign this off. (Proposed Bill linked below).


In fact termination of pregnancy has only one definition in Simon Harris's Bill "termination of pregnancy means a medical procedure which is intended to end the life of the foetus."

There is no mention in Simon Harris's Bill of any duty to deliver a child alive after viability.

Dr Boylan's interview today on Newstalk contradicts these facts, he misrepresented in my opinion what Maria Steen said and he claims that Maria Steen knowingly misled people last night on Claire Byrne. He said the No side were throwing "dirt".

https://health.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/General-Scheme-for-Publication.pdf

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/35/enacted/en/pdf


He also said that where abortion is legalised that rates of abortion decline.






https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/17/abortion-rate-england-and-wales-five-year-high

https://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/13240/44809/15th_May_2018_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_2/
Head 5 is about risks that can only be averted by termination!

5. (1) Notwithstanding the generality of Head 4, or any determination made or pending
pursuant to Head 11 of an application under Head 8(2), it shall be lawful to carry out a
termination of pregnancy in accordance with this Head, where a medical practitioner is of
the reasonable opinion formed in good faith that –
(a) there is an immediate risk to the life of, or of serious harm to the health of, the
pregnant woman, and
(b) it is immediately necessary to carry out the termination of pregnancy in order
to avert that risk
.
I'm fascinated about what you think should happen where there is a risk to a woman's life and early delivery or caeserean will not avert that risk?
 

Telstar 62

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Newstalk have spent the whole day on a damage limitation exercise
after the No crowd won last night's debate!!!:lol:
 

Half Nelson

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Abortion up to birth is provided for in the case of perfectly healthy babies and mothers. All that's required is an unprovable and subjective assessment of immediate risk to mental health, carried out by a "medical practitioner".

It's an absolutely horrific proposal. How could anybody even contemplate such barbarism?
 

gerhard dengler

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Head 5 is about risks that can only be averted by termination!

5. (1) Notwithstanding the generality of Head 4, or any determination made or pending
pursuant to Head 11 of an application under Head 8(2), it shall be lawful to carry out a
termination of pregnancy in accordance with this Head, where a medical practitioner is of
the reasonable opinion formed in good faith that –
(a) there is an immediate risk to the life of, or of serious harm to the health of, the
pregnant woman, and
(b) it is immediately necessary to carry out the termination of pregnancy in order
to avert that risk.
You've managed to make Ger12's point for her.
 

ger12

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Bit ironic going on about the definition of a ToP when PLDPA itself provided for a termination resulting in the destruction of life of the unborn. There's nothing in that Act about accelerated delivery or viability - but yet the usual suspects had no difficulty with re-interpreting the meaning of that Act. Some even suggested that a ToP were a CS. So some would say we're being consistent and it's come full circle.
I should have clarified in the OP (I've done so now) that this obligation results from having the counter balance of the 8th in the Constitution.
 

Cellachán Chaisil

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Abortion up to birth is provided for in the case of perfectly healthy babies and mothers. All that's required is an unprovable and subjective assessment of immediate risk to mental health, carried out by a "medical practitioner".

It's an absolutely horrific proposal. How could anybody even contemplate such barbarism?

I mean just look at the state of this:

8. (1) Notwithstanding the generality of section 7, or any determination made or pending
pursuant to section 13 of an application under section 10(2), it shall be lawful to carry
out a medical procedure in respect of a pregnant woman in accordance with this
section in the course of which, or as a result of which, an unborn human life is ended
where—
(a) a medical practitioner, having examined the pregnant woman, believes in good
faith that there is an immediate risk of loss of the woman’s life from a physical
illness,
(b) the medical procedure is, in his or her reasonable opinion (being an opinion
formed in good faith which has regard to the need to preserve unborn human life
as far as practicable) immediately necessary in order to save the life of the
woman
I mean absolutely disgraceful. Just one "medical practicitioner". Of course that would have to mean abortion on demand.


Except, this is the law at the moment!
 

amist4

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Under the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 a pregnancy may be terminated where there's a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother, including the risk of suicide. Where the baby has reached viability (23/24 weeks) there's a duty on the medical team ending the pregnancy to deliver the child alive if possible because of the 8th Amendment as a counter balance. This Government intends repealing this Act in the event of the referendum passing. (Link posted to Act below).


Under head 5 of Simon Harris's proposed Bill, in the case of an immediate risk to the life of the pregnant women or of an immediate risk of serious harm to her health, including mental health, a termination may be carried out up to birth. There is no duty to deliver the child alive and only one medical practitioner needs to sign this off. (Proposed Bill linked below).


In fact termination of pregnancy has only one definition in Simon Harris's Bill "termination of pregnancy means a medical procedure which is intended to end the life of the foetus."

There is no mention in Simon Harris's Bill of any duty to deliver a child alive after viability.

Dr Boylan's interview today on Newstalk contradicts these facts, he misrepresented in my opinion what Maria Steen said and he claims that Maria Steen knowingly misled people last night on Claire Byrne. He said the No side were throwing "dirt".

https://health.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/General-Scheme-for-Publication.pdf

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/35/enacted/en/pdf


He also said that where abortion is legalised that rates of abortion decline.






https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/17/abortion-rate-england-and-wales-five-year-high

https://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/13240/44809/15th_May_2018_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_2/
Maybe he meant the rates of abortion decline after quadrupling first and the numbers started to refelect the decline in available mothers and fathers over time, as the cull reaped its rewards.
 

redhead

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Newstalk have spent the whole day on a damage limitation exercise
after the No crowd won last night's debate!!!:lol:
Nobody won anything, and even if the 8th is repealed there is no winning, it will simply make a bad situation more bearable for some unfortunate women.
 

Cellachán Chaisil

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You've managed to make Ger12's point for her.
Alas not.

Ger thinks that this means that all risks to life will be ended by termination. When in fact it means only risks to life that can be averted by termination will involve termination.

What do you think should happen to risks to life that can only be remedied by termination i.e. not by delivery or by caeserean?
 
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ger12

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Head 5 is about risks that can only be averted by termination!



I'm fascinated about what you think should happen where there is a risk to a woman's life and early delivery or caeserean will not avert that risk?
That risk to health including mental health in an emergency allows for a termination. Today that termination up to birth would not mean what the termination in Simon Harris Bill means.

That is, there is no obligation post Repeal to deliver a live baby.
 

ger12

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I mean just look at the state of this:



I mean absolutely disgraceful. Just one "medical practicitioner". Of course that would have to mean abortion on demand.


Except, this is the law at the moment!
Yes, with the counter balance of the 8th.
 

Cellachán Chaisil

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That risk to health including mental health in an emergency allows for a termination.
I'm sorry. I asked John McGuirk this and he could not answer, so maybe you will.

What risks to mental health can only be averted by termination as opposed to delivery or caeserean?
 

Cellachán Chaisil

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Yes, with the counter balance of the 8th.
Under the 8th. The same terminology is used. Medical practitioner. This so-called indefinite term that the no side keep picking up on is the fundamental basis for the law as it stands.

But I suppose, you did try to tell us that PODLPA which its abortion with threat of suicide would lead to a more liberal abortion regime than the UK.
 

Half Nelson

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I mean just look at the state of this:



I mean absolutely disgraceful. Just one "medical practicitioner". Of course that would have to mean abortion on demand.


Except, this is the law at the moment!
Don't be a twit. The unborn child now has the right to life, meaning that top must deliver a live child where possible.
With no right to life, with nothing in its favour, the unborn child can be discarded like a piece of meat.
Also, under the proposed legislation top means killing the child; it does not mean live delivery.

Read the fkn thing!
 

ger12

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I'm sorry. I asked John McGuirk this and he could not answer, so maybe you will.

What risks to mental health can only be averted by termination as opposed to delivery or caeserean?
There's no obligation to deliver a live baby. That's the point.
 

Cellachán Chaisil

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Don't be a twit.
I love how you completely evade the point while shouting out insults. The the Nelsonian style of rhetoric, insult and deflect.

Both pieces of legislation, as I said above, mention "medical practitioner". That is the law as it stands and it hasn't lead to psychologists carrying out abortions.
 


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