Drogheda Printer refuses to print Same Sex "wedding" invitations based on religious beliefs

ne0ica

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Perhaps another noble call by the transvestite is called for.
 


cricket

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Using the logic reportedly employed by the printers, could a member of Youth Defence who works in a pharmacy refuse to sell condoms on the grounds that their use is against his/her religious beliefs ?
 

ne0ica

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Using the logic reportedly employed by the printers, could a member of Youth Defence who works in a pharmacy refuse to sell condoms on the grounds that their use is against his/her religious beliefs ?
But the persons in question were not employees but the business owners.
 

Sync

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Using the logic reportedly employed by the printers, could a member of Youth Defence who works in a pharmacy refuse to sell condoms on the grounds that their use is against his/her religious beliefs ?
Oooooh much more interesting question. Utterly different situation to this one, but I would expect them to have made it clear during interview that they couldn't carry out that (reasonable) element of the job, as you would expect someone who couldn't sell alcohol to make that clear when interviewing to work in a pub or supermarket.

If they became a true believer during the course of employment then they'd need to discuss it with their boss and see if it were possible to do other tasks.
 
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Oooooh much more interesting question. Utterly different situation to this one, but I would expect them to have made it clear during interview that they couldn't carry out that (reasonable) element of the job, as you would expect someone who couldn't sell alcohol to make that clear when interviewing to work in a pub or supermarket.

If they became a true believer during the course of employment then they'd need to discuss it with their boss and see if it were possible to do other tasks.
You can't ask questions about religion at an interview, but you certainly could ascertain for the record that the job might involve, for example, dispensing the morning-after pill, and ask the candidate whether they had any problem with that.
 

eurlex

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Yup. Unless they're purposefully taking on martyrdom on principle they're a bunch of dummies. This is open and shut discrimination.
Some basic information about the Equal Status Acts 2000 - 2011. Beulah Printers might want to read it.

What are the aims of the Equal Status Acts?
The Equal Status Acts 2000 – 2011 aim to:
• promote equality;
• ban certain kinds of discrimination across nine grounds;
• ban sexual harassment and harassment;
• ban victimisation;
• promote ‘reasonable accommodation’ of people with
disabilities (this is explained on page 15);
• allow a broad range of positive action measures (this is
explained on page 16).
What are the nine grounds?
The Equal Status Acts 2000 – 2011 ban discrimination on the
following nine grounds:

The Gender ground
You are entitled to equal treatment whether you are a man, a woman or a transgender person.

The Civil Status ground
You are entitled to equal treatment whether you are single, married, separated, divorced, widowed, in a civil partnership or previously in a civil partnership

The Family Status ground
You are entitled to equal treatment whether you are pregnant, a parent of a child under 18 years, or the resident primary carer or parent of a person with a disability

The Sexual Orientation ground
You are entitled to equal treatment whether you are gay, lesbian, bisexual or heterosexual (straight).

The Religion ground
You are entitled to equal treatment no matter what your religious beliefs are or even if you don’t hold any religious beliefs.

The Age ground
You are entitled to equal treatment if you are any age over 18.
(The age ground only applies to young people under 18 if they hold a driver’s licence and are buying car insurance.)

The Race ground
You are entitled to equal treatment no matter what your race, skin colour, nationality or ethnic origin is.

The Traveller community ground
You are entitled to equal treatment if you are a member of the Traveller community and share the traditions and culture of Travellers in Ireland.

The Disability ground
You are entitled to equal treatment if you have a disability, for example, physical, intellectual, learning, cognitive or emotional. Disability could also mean that you suffer from a particular medical condition.

Who is protected under the Acts?
The Acts apply to anyone who:
• buys or sells a wide variety of goods;
• uses or provides a wide range of services;
• provides or uses accommodation (landlords, tenants,
hotels and so on);
• attends or manages a pre-school, school, college or other
educational establishment.

Clubs, such as sports clubs, are treated slightly differently under the Equal Status Acts. There is a separate section dealing with clubs on page 28.

Who decides discrimination claims?
Most claims are brought to the Equality Tribunal which is similar to a court. The Tribunal will examine the claim and make a ruling on it. Claims of discrimination in relation to clubs and licensed premises are dealt with in the District Court. All appeals from the Equality Tribunal and the District Court are dealt with by the Circuit Court.

What is discrimination under the Equal Status Acts?
Broadly speaking, discrimination means that you receive less favourable treatment than other people because of who you are. However, not all forms of discrimination are covered by the Equal Status Acts.

Discrimination has a specific meaning in the Acts and there are different types of discrimination covered by the Acts.

What are the different types of discrimination?
• Direct discrimination is when a person is treated in a less favourable way than another person in the same situation under any of the nine grounds covered by the Acts.
• Indirect discrimination happens where an individual or group of people are placed at a disadvantage as a result of conditions or rules which they might find hard to satisfy and which cannot be reasonably justified. For example, a height requirement might seem neutral but it has a more negative impact on women than men. This is indirectly discriminatory unless it can be proved that the height requirement is justified, appropriate and necessary.

• Discrimination by association happens when a person is treated less favourably simply because they are associated with or connected to another person . For
example, if a person was refused a product or service or
was harassed because they were married to a person of a different religion, they are being discriminated against because they are being associated with their partner’s
belief and being refused on that basis.

• Discrimination by imputation happens when a person is treated less favourably because it is assumed that they belong to one of the categories covered by the nine
grounds whether or not that is the case. For example, if you have a dark complexion and are refused a product or service because the service provider assumes you are of
a different race or nationality, this would be discrimination on the race ground.

<snip>

2. How do the Acts work in relation to goods and services?

Generally, people cannot discriminate when they provide goods and services to the public, even if the goods and services are free.

What is a service?
If you receive a ‘service’, it means a person or organisation has done something for you or supplied you with something you wanted or needed. Examples of services are:
• banking, insurance, grants, loans, credit or financing;
• entertainment, recreation, eating out;
• cultural activities;
• transport or travel;
• services or facilities provided by a club (which are available to the public or a section of the public);
• professional trades or services.

This list gives you some examples of services but there could be many others. The Equal Status Acts cover a wide range of services.

<snip>

Goods and services exemptions
The Acts allow you to be treated differently on the following grounds:

Gender
You can be treated differently in relation to cosmetic services that involve physical contact – for instance, hairdressing, body waxing, and so on. You can also be treated differently if there is a risk that you could be embarrassed because of a lack of privacy. For example, a woman might feel embarrassed having a bikini wax if there was a man present in the same room.

Religion
You can be treated differently in relation to religious goods and services. For example, it is acceptable to facilitate people to observe religious occasions such as Christmas,
Passover or Ramadan.

Age
You can be treated differently on age grounds in relation to the adoption and fostering of children. For example, although there is no legal upper age limit in Ireland to adopt a child, an adoption agency might set its own age limit.

Mixed grounds
Sporting events
The Acts allow people to be treated differently on the basis of their gender, age, disability or nationality but only if the differences are reasonably necessary and relevant. For example, it is acceptable to run an event like the Special Olympics.

Drama and entertainment
You can be treated differently on the basis of your gender, age, disability or race but only if it’s necessary for the good of the production. For example, it would be reasonable to audition only women in the age range 20-35 for the role of Maria in The Sound of Music.

<snip>

All grounds
The Acts allow people to be treated differently on any of the nine grounds in relation to the following:

Insurance
This covers annuities, pensions, insurance policies, and so on. Life assurance policies are based on ‘risk’. Insurance companies decide how much to charge you for your policy based on what kind of ‘risk’ you are. For example, if you have a strong family history of a particular illness, you might be considered ‘high’ risk and have to pay more for life assurance than somebody else. This kind of different treatment would
be allowed if the differences are based on proper risk
assessment, research and statistics.

Wills and gifts
A person making a will or a gift is entitled to choose whoever they want to benefit.

Promotion of special interests
This covers services that promote or favour the interests of one person or group over another, for example, an active retirement association.

Special needs
This covers goods and services which can reasonably be regarded as being suitable only to the needs of certain people. For example, it is not discrimination under the Acts for disabled parking spaces to be reserved solely for people with disabilities.
http://www.equality.ie/Files/Your-Equal-Status-Rights-Explained-Easy-to-read-version-.pdf

The nine grounds on which discrimination is generally not allowed have been in place since 2000.

There's no real excuse for any Irish business not to know that the law has prevented discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation for almost 15 years.
 

The Nal

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Haha what a bunch of inbred bigots
 

Verhofstadt

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Sync

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You can't ask questions about religion at an interview, but you certainly could ascertain for the record that the job might involve, for example, dispensing the morning-after pill, and ask the candidate whether they had any problem with that.
You can't ask about religion (Correctly), but you can detail the requirements of the job and ask if the applicant can carry out all those tasks.
 

eurlex

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Using the logic reportedly employed by the printers, could a member of Youth Defence who works in a pharmacy refuse to sell condoms on the grounds that their use is against his/her religious beliefs ?
Not if it means that the supply of goods or service to customers will be affected in a discriminatory way.

Ladele and McFarlane both objected, due to their religious beliefs about marriage and sexual relationships, to carrying out certain work duties in respect of same-sex couples. The European Court of Human Rights found against both of them. In Ladele, a registrar who refused to perform civil partnerships and was ultimately dismissed, the majority of the Court found that the employer’s application of the corporate ‘equality and dignity’ policy to refuse to exempt an employee from particular duties, was within the range of permissible choices available to the employer, and the domestic courts had not exceeded the wide discretion given to them when determining this case which involved striking a balance between competing Convention rights. In reaching that conclusion, the majority of the Court did not accept the employee's argument that the employer should have accommodated her
conscientious objection.

In McFarlane, a counsellor who refused to offer psycho-sexual therapy tosame-sex couples contrary to his employer’s non-discrimination policy and was dismissed, the Court unanimously decided that a fair balance was struck between the competing interests at stake. The most important factor for the Court was that the employer’s action was intended to secure the implementation of its policy of providing a service without discrimination.

Accordingly, although the Court recognised that the loss of a job was a severe sanction with grave consequences, it concluded the State had not exceeded the wide discretion it enjoys to determine the right balance between manifesting religious belief and protecting the rights of others.

<snip>

The judgment means that courts will now give more attention to deciding whether restrictions on religious rights in the workplace are appropriate and necessary. Some relevant considerations for employers include the need to:
• take a balanced view of the religion or belief needs of the employee
• review policies and practices causing problems for employees related to
religion or belief, ensuring employees are not subjected to a detriment at
work whilst this happens
• consider the impact that meeting those needs has on other employees
• consider the impact that meeting those needs has on customers, and consider whether the aim they are pursuing is legitimate and, if so, whether it is being pursued by proportionate means.
http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/documents/RoB/religion_or_belief_in_the_workplace_an_explanation_of_recent_judgments_final.pdf
 

SEAMAI

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Indeed they appear pretty evangelical in their beliefs, however how often do you google a business name to check it's religiosity?

while "beulah" a bit biblical, I'd have no idea without searching what it meant.

Note the customer claims to used them for 4 years so I don't think this was a smear / hitjob, additionally note the statement regarding the printer coming to the client's office..
Beulah to me sound like some southern belle lounging on the verandah of her antebellum mansion being served mint juleps while watching the pickaninnies in the cotton fields.

"Oh Beulah, peel me a grape"
(May West in I'm no Angel)
 
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You can't ask about religion (Correctly), but you can detail the requirements of the job and ask if the applicant can carry out all those tasks.
That's pretty much it.

As en amployer you also have the fallback of a probation period, in which period any moral or ethical bars should emerge. The potential paradox arises if (as you mentioned) an employee becomes full-on religious after the period when their status as a full-time employee is ratified.

If they suddenly developed a full-on set of scruples about delivering contraceptives and if that impacted on their ability to perform the job then they'd have to go. We're speaking healthcare (for some, contraception is a medical necessity), and as an employer I couldn't possibly put the lives or health of customers at risk.

The paradox arises in as much that if I am to fire someone because they potentially put my company at risk of breaching equality legislation, am I in effect discriminating based on religion in the discharge of my duties as an employer? I would certainly be taking legal advice on that one.

ETA: I see that Eurlex has covered the issue of these competing rights.
 
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But we're speaking about whether or not its illegal.

This is not a philosophical discussion.

This kind of discrimination is illegal.
Of course it's illegal but we hardly need a discussion to establish that fact. The point I was raising was how a conflict between a moral objection and the right to equality of treatment should be resolved. I simply refuse to accept the principle that "equality" should trump all other rights.
 

enuffisenuff

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Mercurial

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Beulah (given name) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Given that they have a biblical reference in their name, is someone trying to be offended by asking them to print same sex invitations and being outraged at their refusal?
Maybe if you read the article you would see that the person in question says he's been giving them his custom for four years.

Unless maybe you think it's some kind of long con?
 


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