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Dump "Occupied Territories" moniker -- just "Israel" (One State)


Eric Cartman

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The so-called "Two-State Solution" is a dead duck.

What's more, the preposterous notion that the West Bank and Gaza are somehow not part of the polity known as the State of Israel has allowed the Israelis to deny almost half their population the electoral franchise.

Israel has occupied the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights from Jordan, Egypt and Syria, respectively since their ill-fated 1967 invasion. The international community considers these territories non-Israeli (including East Jerusalem, which Israel formally annexed) and since the Oslo Accords, the whole or part of them to constitute some sort of Palestinian State in the future.

Israel exercises total military control over the territories and civil control over about 72% of the West Bank ("Area C", Oslo II: a temporary arrangement) and civil and joint-security control over a further 25% ("Area B"). Palestinian Authority exercises full civilian and security control over ...drum roll!!...3% of the West Bank.

Israel's network of bases, settlements, the Wall and the nebulous nature of these Oslo Accord temporary administrative areas have created some Godawful mess that resembles a South African Bantustan. Frankly, the tragic combination of incompetent Palestinian leadership and factionalism, worldwide attention drawn to Syria, Iraq and the "Arab Spring" etc. has lead to some sort of drift which has suited Israel enormously. Ismaʻīl Haniyya has done the Palestinians absolutely no favors with his controversial alliance with Hezbollah and Iran, giving the Israelis the perfect excuse to continue to exert military control over the region.

Israel's long-term strategic interest is to annex as much of the West Bank as much as possible and settle it with Jews from wherever (mainly New York, judging by the accents. Pity there are people already living there). Control of the Jordan river is a major objective as Israel is parched, but also a military requirement too.

What is the total population of Israel and the "Occupied territories"? This interesting paper provides the answer:
http://www.israelstudies.umd.edu/pdf/Position Paper 4.pdf

At the beginning of 2010, Israel's core Jewish population reached 5,704,000. When combined with 313,000 non-Jewish members of Jewish households-mostly immigrants from the former Soviet Union-the enlarged Jewish population amounts to 6,017,000. This includes 296,000 residents in the West Bank.
The Arab population that is incorporated into the state of Israel-enlarged by natural increase, the annexation of East Jerusalem in 1967, and the adoption of Israel's legal system for the Golan Heights-reached 1,536,000 in 2010. The West Bank and Gaza have a combined Palestinian population of 3,670,000, for a grand total of 5,206,000 Arabs living in Israel and territories under the Palestinian Authority.
Looking at the table above, one striking figure is that nearly 11.5 million people live in this small territory-about half of which, especially in the south, is thinly
8
populated desert. (Population is quite dense in the northern half of both Israel and the Palestinian territories.) The total population is even more remarkable in light of the evaluations of experts in the 1920s and 1930s. They believed the top carrying capacity of British Palestine, given its available physical resources, was about 2.5 million people. This says a lot-beyond the political aspects of the demographic equation-about technology's ability, albeit not unlimited, to increase the economic capacity of a land and its possible population size..
Basically, although 76% of the State of Israel is Jewish, only 52% of "Greater Israel" is Jewish. The main problem is that the Muslim/Christian birth rate far exceeds that of the Jews and although there was a surge in immigration from the USSR in the '90s, this has abated significantly. Furthermore, a significant proportion of the Jewish natural increase in population is due to the Ultra-Orthodox Hasidim (who have a very ambivalent relationship with Israeli nationalism and are exempt from military service):

Israel's Jewish fertility rate nearing 2010 was slightly on the rise at 2.9 children per woman-substantially higher than in any other developed country, and twice or more the effective Jewish fertility rate in most diaspora communities. This reflects not only the typically large families of the Jewish population's more religious component, but also a diffused desire for children among moderately traditional and secular Jews, a trend especially notable among the upwardly mobile.
The current fertility rate for Israel's Arab citizens, at 3.7 children per woman, is down from its top level of nearly 10 children on average in the early 1960s. A closer look at the data reveals stable fertility patterns among the majority of Israel's Arab citizens, and a much higher but rapidly declining fertility rate among semi-nomadic Bedouins in the south.
..and..

Here are some facts.
In 2009, Arabs accounted for just over 20 percent of Israel's population (including West Bank Jewish residents but not Palestinians in the occupied territories). Yet Arabs generated 25 percent of all births in Israel because of higher fertility rates and, importantly, because of their much younger age composition. At the same time Arabs, again because of their much younger age composition, accounted for only 10 percent of all deaths in Israel.
..and..

Consequently, excluding international migration, 30 percent of the total natural increase in Israel's population last year occurred in the Arab sector-significantly higher than the Arabs' population share. Excluding immigration, in 2009 Israel's population grew by 1.5 percent among Jews and 2.5 percent among Arabs.

The present trend thus generates a steady growth in the Arab share of Israel's population. Israel's Arab population is expected to reach 24 percent in 2030 and 27 percent in 2050, while the share of Arabs among children younger than 15 will likely be 30 percent by 2030. Looking at age composition, in 2009 Jews comprised 91 percent of all Israelis at age 78, 77 percent at age 48, 70 percent at age 18, and 68 percent at age 6. This represents a gradual transformation in structural identity within Israeli society as one moves from the older to the younger age cohorts-a transformation from a national into a binational state.
The rest of the paper discusses the inevitability of the State of Israel attaining a bi national character. But that doesn't consider the large Palestinian populations of the Occupied Territories that are increasing: Israel is already a bi national state, but one in which almost 35% of its population is electorally disenfranchised. Not very democratic is it?

Israel's intransigence is terribly calculating and the international community should respond in kind: let us say there are no "Occupied Territories", just "Greater Israel". This is the truth, of course. The international community should then apply the same opprobrium to Israel it did to South Africa in the '80s for the electoral disenfranchisement of Blacks: how can Israel be a democracy is up to 34.65% of the population doesn't have the right to elect deputies to the Knesset despite 40 years of civil and military administration from Tell Aviv?
 


corporal punishment

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I declare this post anti smithwicks or something. No beautfull badges for you.
 

Howya

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In short, Israel lays claim to extended territory but then does not allow that population a vote?
 

L'Chaim

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Certainly not. The palestinians want their own state and they should have it.......they just have to negotiate for it and make agreements that that palestinian state will not be used to attack Israel from. The palestinians dream of having their own state and to live in self-determination. Who are others to say they don't really understand and they should give up their dreams. They should have their own state, but that does not alter the fact that the key reason they don't have a state is because of their long time refusal to accept compromise with Israel
 

Interista

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Excellent post.

The '2 state solution' is a sick joke. Those who advocate it - even with good intentions - are essentially advocating the ongoing occupation of Palestine. Let us be in no doubt about that. One state, with equal rights for all, is the only solution.
 

L'Chaim

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Excellent post.

The '2 state solution' is a sick joke. Those who advocate it - even with good intentions - are essentially advocating the ongoing occupation of Palestine. Let us be in no doubt about that. One state, with equal rights for all, is the only solution.
And just what makes you think that you know better than the palestinians what is best for them?
 
S

SeamusNapoleon

And just what makes you think that you know better than the palestinians what is best for them?
:lol:

He pretends he cares about the Palestinians now!*

*though not enough to upper-case them...
 

Tea Party Patriot

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:lol:

He pretends he cares about the Palestinians now!*

*though not enough to upper-case them...
Ah yes a palestinian dies every time someone doesn't use a capital P :roll:
 

Eric Cartman

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Certainly not. The palestinians want their own state and they should have it.......they just have to negotiate for it and make agreements that that palestinian state will not be used to attack Israel from. The palestinians dream of having their own state and to live in self-determination. Who are others to say they don't really understand and they should give up their dreams. They should have their own state, but that does not alter the fact that the key reason they don't have a state is because of their long time refusal to accept compromise with Israel
The Palestinians will never have their own state. The drift that has occurred over the last couple of years will continue and this suits Israel. Whatever state Israel will permit to exist will have an impracticably large border and basically ungovernable. It suits Israel to have 1.2 million Palestinian workers penned up in Gaza, to be allowed admission to work in Israel when cheap labour is required and then the tap turned off when necessary.

The proposed Palestinian state will simply not be worth it.

If the international community considers "Israel and the Occupied Territories" just one state, Israel, then enormous moral pressure can be brought upon Israel for such issues as the electoral disenfranchisement of 35% of the state's residents (Muslim and Christian Palestinians, although much of the West Bank's Jews can elect members to the Knesset!) and the ongoing settlements' program. If Israel is such a superior country to its Arab neighbours, then let the West Bank & Gaza Palestinians be part of it too. The civil and military occupation that has endured for over 45 years basically means that the Gaza strip and West Bank are integral parts of Israel. Now, let the Israelis treat them as citizens and afford them all the civil rights and privileges that entails.
 

Eric Cartman

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Polls from Wikipedia

A one-state solution is generally endorsed by Palestinian Arabs in Israel. Many are becoming nervous that a two-state solution would result in official pressures for them to move into a Palestinian state in the West Bank and/or Gaza Strip and so lose their homes and access to their communities, businesses and cities inside Israel. Some Israeli government spokespeople have also proposed that Palestinian-majority areas of Israel, such as the area around Umm el-Fahm, be annexed to the new Palestinian state. As this measure would cut these areas off permanently from the rest of Israel's territory, including the coastal cities and other Palestinian towns and villages, Palestinians view this with alarm. Palestinian citizens of Israel would therefore greatly prefer a one-state solution because this would allow them to sustain their Israeli citizenship while restoring ties with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza from whom they have been separated for over 60 years.
Hamas has rejected a two state solution.The Hamas charter states "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. " Islamic Jihad also rejects a two state solution. An Islamic Jihad leader Khalid al-Batsh stated that "The idea cannot be accepted and we believe that the entire Palestine is Arab and Islamic land and belongs to the Palestinian nation."
A multi-option poll by Near East Consulting (NEC) in November 2007 found the bi-national state to be less popular than either "two states for two people" or "a Palestinian state on all historic Palestine" with only 13.4% of respondents supporting a binational solution. However, in February 2007, NEC found that around 70% of Palestinian respondents backed the idea when given a straight choice of either supporting or opposing "a one-state solution in historic Palestine where Muslims, Christians and Jews have equal rights and responsibilities". In March 2010, a survey by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research and the Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem found that Palestinian support had risen to 29 percent. In April 2010, a poll by the Jerusalem Media and Communication Centre also found that Palestinian support for a "bi-national" solution had jumped from 20.6 percent in June 2009 to 33.8 percent. If this support for a bi-national state is combined with the finding that 9.8 percent of Palestinian respondents favour a "Palestinian state" in "all of historic Palestine", this poll suggested about equal Palestinian support for a two-state and one-state solution in mid-2010. In November 2009, Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat proposed the adoption of the one-state solution if Israel didn't halt settlement construction:
"[it is time to] (sic) refocus their attention on the one-state solution where Muslims, Christians and Jews can live as equals... It is very serious. This is the moment of truth for us."
In 2011, a poll by Stanley Greenberg and the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion and sponsored by the Israel Project revealed that 61% of Palestinians reject a two state solution, while 34% said they accepted it. 66% said the Palestinians’ real goal should be to start with a two-state solution but then move to it all being one Palestinian state.
Some Israeli Jews and Palestinians who oppose a one-state solution have nevertheless come to believe that it may come to pass. Israeli Prime Minister Olmert argued, in a 2007 interview with the Israeli daily Ha'aretz, that without a two-state agreement Israel would face "a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights" in which case "Israel [would be] finished". This echoes comments made in 2004 by Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei, who said that if Israel failed to conclude an agreement with the Palestinians, that the Palestinians would pursue a single, bi-national state.
^ "Palestinians in Israel". The Future Vision of the Palestinian Arabs in Israel. Reut Institute. 2006. Retrieved 25 January 2011.
^ Hamas: We won't accept two-state solution - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper
^ The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988
^ IMRA - Monday, May 16, 2011 Islamic Jihad Leader Rejects Two-State Solution to Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
^ "NEC poll". NEC General Monthly Survey. Near East Consulting. 2007. Retrieved 25 January 2011.
^ "NEC poll 2". NEC General Monthly Survey. Near East Consulting. 2007. Retrieved 25 January 2011.
^ a b Joffe-Walt, Benjamin (22 March 2010). "Palestinians increasingly back 1-state". The Jerusalem Post. Retrieved 3 September 2011.
^ a b "Jerusalem Media Poll". Poll No. 70, April 2010 - Governance and US policy. Jerusalem Media and Communications Centre. 2010. Retrieved 25 January 2011.
^ Mohammed Assadi (4 November 2009). "Saeb Erekat and the One state solution". Palestinian state may have to be abandoned - Erekat (Reuters). Retrieved 25 January 2011.
^ 6 in 10 Palestinians reject 2-sta... JPost - Diplomacy & Politics
^ "Palestinian PM's 'one state' call". BBC News. January 9, 2004. Retrieved May 5, 2010


The One-State solution is gaining in popularity among Palestinians.

It is the de-facto situation, but will the UN and the international community endorse what has been the de facto state for 45 years?

What is President Obama's opinion? Not huge fan but I am glad that he is cool with Netanyahu. He could punish Bibi for putting him on the spot re: Iran and surreptitiously backing Romney? I realize that there are so many Jews in the Democratic Party and not too mention his administration, but would he completely screw over Netanyahu now that he has his second term?
 

Eric Cartman

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The birthrate differentials between Arabs (Muslim and Christian) and Jews provides justification for Jewish rejection of a one-state solution.
But isn't it already a reality?

Didn't South African Whites attempt to contrive a notional majority by creating a dozen notionally "independent" states, the Bantustans in which Blacks had civil control (usually a despotic strong man, with the backing of Johannesburg), whilst maintaining a sort of joint security control? This is exactly the situation here and the likely outcome of a "Palestinian State".
 

Riadach

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Grey Area

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Good post but the elephant in the room is that God has the veto on any plans.
 
Last edited:

Partizan

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Certainly not. The palestinians want their own state and they should have it.......they just have to negotiate for it and make agreements that that palestinian state will not be used to attack Israel from. The palestinians dream of having their own state and to live in self-determination. Who are others to say they don't really understand and they should give up their dreams. They should have their own state, but that does not alter the fact that the key reason they don't have a state is because of their long time refusal to accept compromise with Israel
By Israel evicting Palestinian Christians and Muslims from their lands in the West Bank and replacing them with settlers, more and more land is being lost at an increasingly rapid rate. This makes the prospect of a Two-State solution all that more remote. Within a decade the only hope left would be for Israel to take all the Palestinians in and grant them full and equal rights along with citizenship. But then again as you have shown, Israel will continually move the goalposts, procrastinate, obsfucate, delay and frustrate all the while seizing more and more land from the Palestinians. The long term strategy of Israel is to seize all the land, forcing the resident Palestinian Christian and Muslim populations into an ever decreasing and economic/political unfeasable Bantustans in the hope that they will give up and leave. So to sum it up, Israel wants the land but not its people. It cant have both. Tel Aviv is increasingly painting itself into a corner. Its hand will be forced in the medium term either way.
 

Éireann go Brách

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One state won't work it will end up a failed multi-culti state in limbo
waiting to kick off
like Lebanon, Bosnia, Six counties,USA or Iraq
States where all the purple people vote for the purple party because they are purple
Also significant intelligence gap between Jews and arabs which would result in Jews always being on top until such Gap is closed which would take many generations
if ever So you going to be left with a major wealth gap which will cause instability
Best Solution for stability involves big fences IMO until the arab world is democratic, stable secular and prosperous

Third solution as well Plan C


Go back to 1967 as close as possible
Gaza becomes an autonomous region of Egypt.
West bank is divided between Jordan and Israel
Jerusalem becomes a demilitarized independent city state ruled by a powering sharing committee like monte carlo or san marino or the Vatican
Some sort of compensation for Displaced Palestines.
 

rll69

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In this mythical one state with equal rights for all - would there be a single educational system or would the Palestinians (yes I used a capital 'P') still be able to teach their children to hate Jews and teh benefits of being a Shahid when they grow up?

Would the Palestinians be forced to accept the concept of equal rights for women and forsake the concept of honour killings (over 50 in the last 5 years)?

Will the Palestinians accept a Gay Pride march through Ramallah that doesn't end with the participants being stoned or burned to death?

Will Arab Christians, Druze and Bahai be allowed full freedom of worship in the Palestinian areas of this wonderous state or will they have to relocate to areas where ther is a Jewish majority in order to ensure their safety?

A two state solution is the only option until the Palestinians recognise the rights of others
 

bye bye mubarak

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Good post but the elephant in the room is that God has the veto on any plans.
Are you serious; which god. The native americans could claim the usa on that childish nonsense. The christians used this excuse for crusades to free the holy land. Grow up.
 

Barroso

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Go back to 1967 as close as possible
Some sort of compensation for Displaced Palestines.
Why not go back to 1948 borders, after all those are the ones that the UN originally approved. Anything else, except the unitary state solution, is a travesty, and basically gives a seal of approval to Israel's expansionist policies.
 

flavirostris

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OP is spot on. The fiction of separateness has allowed Israel to get away with denying half the population of "Greater Israel" full political rights.

Some people have commented that Israel's form of Apartheid is actually worse than South Africa's because it contains the fiction of being temporary.
 

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