Dunkirk and Churchill : What is a military victory?

McSlaggart

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I watched the movies Dunkirk and Churchill (both good films) and one got the impression that a narrative of a victory of sorts was snatch from defeat.

My personal view on the matter is that it was a terrible defeat apart from all the loss of life the British handed the Germans a lot of military hardware that they needed for the rest of the war. Their is no shame in a defeat such as the "Siege of Jadotville" As for victory



Pyrrhus replied to one that gave him joy of his victory that one other such victory would utterly undo him.

Wikipedia
 


GDPR

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The successful evacuation was the "victory".

Saving your arse when all appeared lost will always feel like a victory.
 

gleeful

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I watched the movies Dunkirk and Churchill (both good films) and one got the impression that a narrative of a victory of sorts was snatch from defeat.

My personal view on the matter is that it was a terrible defeat apart from all the loss of life the British handed the Germans a lot of military hardware that they needed for the rest of the war. Their is no shame in a defeat such as the "Siege of Jadotville" As for victory



Pyrrhus replied to one that gave him joy of his victory that one other such victory would utterly undo him.

Wikipedia
Dunkirk was propaganda. Losing all those troops would have been a blow to moral but it wouldnt have changed the outcome of the war.

A number Id love to know: how many of the troops saved at Dunkirk fought again in D-Day.
 

Herr Rommel

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The first of many mistakes by Hitler, The BEF would have been crushed on the beaches if he had allowed the tanks to continue to advance,
 

McSlaggart

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The first of many mistakes by Hitler, The BEF would have been crushed on the beaches if he had allowed the tanks to continue to advance,
Without checking I think the German generals was worried about their supply lines being to long.
 

gleeful

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The first of many mistakes by Hitler, The BEF would have been crushed on the beaches if he had allowed the tanks to continue to advance,
I disagree. The BEF was defeated. Taking 200k prisoners would have been a waste of German resources. Better to let them go.
 

GDPR

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The first of many mistakes by Hitler, The BEF would have been crushed on the beaches if he had allowed the tanks to continue to advance,
I think at that point his heart wasn't in a crushing defeat of the British BEF, he still hoped they would accept his conquest of mainland Europe and go for peace with Germany.

It was a gamble, thankfully he lost and as you say, the first of many.
 

NativeWildCat

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It didn't particularly mean anything in the grand scheme of things since the Germans had zero desire to invade Blighty anyway. The Germans just bloodied the nose of the aggressor, nothing more.
 

shutuplaura

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With the Dunkirk movie, it clearly says in the trailer, survival is victory. It is the theme if the movie.

There is a truth there in this case, the evacuation allowed the army to rebuild much quicker than building a new army. I would personally consider it a successful evacuation following a heavy defeat.
 

gleeful

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With the Dunkirk movie, it clearly says in the trailer, survival is victory. It is the theme if the movie.

There is a truth there in this case, the evacuation allowed the army to rebuild much quicker than building a new army. I would personally consider it a successful evacuation following a heavy defeat.
By the time DDay happened the Nazis were virtually defeated by the Soviets anyway.
 

NativeWildCat

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By the time DDay happened the Nazis were virtually defeated by the Soviets anyway.
Exactly. About 95% of the Wehrmacht's might was engaged against the Soviets. They were the key player in defeating Germany and capturing almost the entire Europe. Watching laughable British propaganda you'd think the campaign from Normandy onwards was against the full German might rather than against lightly armed conscripted Soviet prisoners, Hitler youth and the Volkssturm.
 

statsman

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History as catnip. Wonderful.
 

cozzy121

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Dunkirk was propaganda. Losing all those troops would have been a blow to moral but it wouldnt have changed the outcome of the war.

A number Id love to know: how many of the troops saved at Dunkirk fought again in D-Day.
It could have led to Churchill being ousted and a the next PM suing for peace
 

gleeful

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It could have led to Churchill being ousted and a the next PM suing for peace
I don't think that would have massively changed the course of the war either. The UK didn't fight much (relative to the other fronts) from 40-42, and their contributions during that period wouldn't have been materially different even if they had formally been at peace. Undoubtedly, as the war in the east turned against the Nazis, the Brits and the US would have re-entered the battle regardless of any treaties. By the end of '42, it was obvious that the war would soon be about whether the Soviet Union would ultimately be allowed to occupy France and gain an Atlantic coastline or not - just a question of when.
 

Toland

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I don't think that would have massively changed the course of the war either. The UK didn't fight much (relative to the other fronts) from 40-42, and their contributions during that period wouldn't have been materially different even if they had formally been at peace. Undoubtedly, as the war in the east turned against the Nazis, the Brits and the US would have re-entered the battle regardless of any treaties. By the end of '42, it was obvious that the war would soon be about whether the Soviet Union would ultimately be allowed to occupy France and gain an Atlantic coastline or not - just a question of when.
Total, utter and complete nonsense.
 

commonman

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A Quote from Eduardo Galeano.

History never really says goodbye, History says, see you later.
 


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