Dyslexia in English and the Irish language

Baron von Biffo

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That is welcome news indeed; although is it not the case that the second-level was meant to open this year?

More importantly, and more to the point - the government has no policy on Irish-medium education that I am aware of.
Each school that opens comes about as a result of constant pressure by parents, and has to fight enormous inertia and hostility on the part of the Dept of Education and maybe others.

I believe that the time has come when we need to ask each candidate who comes to our door looking for our vote what his/her party's policy on Irish-medium education is, and make it clear that no policy means no vote. And I do not say this against any particular party - most if not all parties have no specific policy on the subject. Most will tell you that they support Irish-medium education, but have no actual policy where they set out what they are going to do, and how and when, and how much money will be made available for it.
Primary, secondary, and tertiary; and not forgetting pre-school as a lot of public money is today going to subsidise private English-language creches.
Political parties have policies on the things they believe their potential voters rate as important. The absence of policies in any area is a very clear indication that the voters aren't raising it in any significant numbers with their TDs.
 


Barroso

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it was confirmed that it will not open until next year.
What sort of bullshít is that?
Something is confirmed when it goes as planned. When it does not go as planned, it is - by definition - not confirmed.
 

DJP

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What sort of bullshít is that?
Something is confirmed when it goes as planned. When it does not go as planned, it is - by definition - not confirmed.
Apparently there was suspicions that it would not open this month because there has to be a principal in place and working the previous year before a school opens and there wasn't in this case so it was confirmed to the parents in June that the school is not going to open for another year. I assume they have the principal in place now or will very soon.
 

Barroso

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That parents would send their kids to a gaelscoil isn't, of itself, evidence of any liking for the Irish language. Certainly I've heard parents say that gaelscoileanna are a great way to avoid having their kids mixing with kids form from skanger families. There's also mention of fewer immigrant families and fewer kids with special needs.

And of course some gaelscoileanna are that bit more difficult to get to, especially in rural areas where they may not be accessible by the school bus service. Never dismiss lightly an element of snobbery.

A better indicator would be to see how parents would react to a proposal to end the compulsory Irish requirement and what they'd do if it was ended.
I've read cliches like these online from plenty of people who hate Irish, but have never heard them from anyone who has a child at a Gaelscoil. In Dublin, for instance, most Gaelscoileanna are in lower middle class and working class areas. These areas are where the growth came from particularly since 1990.
My children attended one of these schools, and in that school there were, oh my god how did the little darlings cope,
immigrant children
children of what you so obnoxiously dismiss as "skanger" families
special needs children


BTW I'd love you to provide me with a list of Gaelscoileanna "in rural areas". Because outside the Gaeltacht, I'm only aware of one rural Gaelscoil. It's an urban phenomenon for many reasons, but in particular very few rural parishes would have the numbers for two schools.

The schools that are really difficult to get into are the private fee-paying schools of S. Co. Dublin, and similar around the country. If you haven't loadsa bread, don't bother applying. Now, there's a great way of keeping
immigrant children
children of what you so obnoxiously dismiss as "skanger" families
special needs children

at arms length.

Any more anti-Irish cliches, just bin them. I'm not interested.
 

Barroso

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Apparently there was suspicions that it would not open this month because there has to be a principal in place and working the previous year before a school opens and there wasn't in this case so it was confirmed to the parents in June that the school is not going to open for another year. I assume they have the principal in place now or will very soon.
So they decided not to employ a principal, that would be because they didn't want to open the school.

And I repeat - they didn't confirm anything. They did the opposite.
They lied when they said the school would open this year. Not a pretty thing to do.
 

DJP

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My suspicion is that were the government to announce that compuslion was to be dropped it would be met by tremendous indifference beyond language activists.
There is tremendous indifference to most social and educational issues in life. I still believe that a large number of people like Irish and have no problem with it being compulsory. Half of the students who did Irish for the Leaving Cert. last June did Honours Level and a substantial number of students have always done Honours Level (I think, overall). These students/former students generally like Irish and generally have no problem with it being required for Leaving Cert.
 

Hunter-Gatherer

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I could not give a ****, I could not care.

As an Irish person, the least priority in my life is Gaelic.
It's a total waste of time learning a dinosaur racist language
 

Baron von Biffo

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I've read cliches like these online from plenty of people who hate Irish, but have never heard them from anyone who has a child at a Gaelscoil. In Dublin, for instance, most Gaelscoileanna are in lower middle class and working class areas. These areas are where the growth came from particularly since 1990.
My children attended one of these schools, and in that school there were, oh my god how did the little darlings cope,
immigrant children
children of what you so obnoxiously dismiss as "skanger" families
special needs children


BTW I'd love you to provide me with a list of Gaelscoileanna "in rural areas". Because outside the Gaeltacht, I'm only aware of one rural Gaelscoil. It's an urban phenomenon for many reasons, but in particular very few rural parishes would have the numbers for two schools.

The schools that are really difficult to get into are the private fee-paying schools of S. Co. Dublin, and similar around the country. If you haven't loadsa bread, don't bother applying. Now, there's a great way of keeping
immigrant children
children of what you so obnoxiously dismiss as "skanger" families
special needs children

at arms length.

Any more anti-Irish cliches, just bin them. I'm not interested.
Closing your ears to reality isn't a good coping strategy.
 

Baron von Biffo

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There is tremendous indifference to most social and educational issues in life.
Alas that can't be disputed.

I still believe that a large number of people like Irish and have no problem with it being compulsory. Half of the students who did Irish for the Leaving Cert. last June did Honours Level and a substantial number of students have always done Honours Level (I think, overall). These students/former students generally like Irish and generally have no problem with it being required for Leaving Cert.
The proof of the pudding would be to remove the compulsion. Interestingly the only opposition to that suggestion I ever encounter is form Irish language advocates. My guess is that they realise that people don't need to be compelled to do the things they like doing.
 

McTell

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No
You wouldn't mind if language enthusiasts actually spoke irish solid for a week every month. But they won't.

And on the quays of dublin this morning, Ormond Quay is still spelt as "Urumhan" instead of Urmumham. Nobody gives a cuss about it being right, just let's put something on the sign that is different and vaguely irish.

Also downriver, Marlborough is still "Maoil Bride", a servant of Brigid.

And a stone's throw in amiens street, foras na G is paying a rent of half a mill a year for a large building, to give itself importance and justify its jobs and salaries - for doing what?

 

Fun with Irish

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If a large number of the population of all age groups who like Irish and have no problem with it being taught are not included as being among the Irish population then you may be right.
Sure - some people like Irish.

But the population's position on Irish is that they speak English.

Gaelscoileanna for the devotees; compulsory Irish for the rest; sermons preached by politicians; governments putting up signs; jobs for the select few - have not changed that in a near-century of trying.

(Or pretending to try, as some correspondents have been saying.)
 

Fun with Irish

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........................

My suspicion is that were the government to announce that compuslion was to be dropped it would be met by tremendous indifference beyond language activists. And I further suspect that if it wasn't compulsory the numbers studying it would plummet.
That's exactly what the Gaeilgeoiri and T.D.s Joe McHugh and Seán Kyne think. So they need Irish to be compulsory.

The self-imagery is useful to them - 'the people love it, really, only they don't know' - 'with Irish Joe and Seán are the keepers of the soul of the nation' - 'a sprinkling of Irish is a blessing like a sprinkling of holy water'.

You know it all ..................
 

DJP

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But not enough it seems, to keep it alive if it wasn't a compulsory subject in schools.
I believe it wouldn't die if it was made optional for Leaving Cert.
 

DJP

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I personally would probably support Irish being compulsory for the Leaving Cert. if the "Irish language world" (if you get me) was a lot more developed. Maybe these new gaelscoileanna- and crucially I hope the change is made for second level gaelscoileanna soon also- will have a big effect influentially as well as numerically, which they probably will. As of now though the "Irish language world" is mostly pretty weak which makes most activist supporters of compulsory Irish for the Leaving Cert. including Gaelscoileanna principals and teachers and paid Irish language promoters sound pathetic in the grand scheme of things.
 

Fun with Irish

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I remember hearing that a dictionary of modern Irish was being prepared by, I think, the Royal Irish Academy back in the 1980s or so.
I was told that at one stage the first volume, the letter A, was ready for publication, but just then computers became widely available, so they started the project again from scratch.
Doubtless they are beavering away madly still, but not a peep has been heard from them since, and now 30 years later there is still no sign of the letter A, never mind the dictionary as a whole.
..................
A lot of work was done on that RIA dictionary. Must follow it up.
 

Fun with Irish

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I personally would probably support Irish being compulsory for the Leaving Cert. if the "Irish language world" (if you get me) was a lot more developed. Maybe these new gaelscoileanna- and crucially I hope the change is made for second level gaelscoileanna soon also- will have a big effect influentially as well as numerically, which they probably will. As of now though the "Irish language world" is mostly pretty weak which makes most activist supporters of compulsory Irish for the Leaving Cert. including Gaelscoileanna principals and teachers and paid Irish language promoters sound pathetic in the grand scheme of things.
"Compulsion" is the worm in the apple.

A scenario in which children from English-speaking families are introduced to Irish and at a certain point are free to continue with it in school or not, is better than the present system of compulsion.

The fact that it needs to be compulsory all through school, and that the Irish-language enthusiasts and state activists are so afraid of free choice, is evidence in itself that policy is radically distorted.

The need to block the wishes of some parents' who want their child to concentrate on another subject for the Leaving Cert, and the fear that the system of blocking them is being weakened, is enough evidence to condemn the present policy. It is against both the norms of freedom and the norms of good education practice and should end.
 

Fun with Irish

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I personally would probably support Irish being compulsory for the Leaving Cert. if the "Irish language world" (if you get me) was a lot more developed. Maybe these new gaelscoileanna- and crucially I hope the change is made for second level gaelscoileanna soon also- will have a big effect influentially as well as numerically, which they probably will. As of now though the "Irish language world" is mostly pretty weak which makes most activist supporters of compulsory Irish for the Leaving Cert. including Gaelscoileanna principals and teachers and paid Irish language promoters sound pathetic in the grand scheme of things.
The debate about Irish would become quite benign if it were accepted that reviving it is a minority interest in society. As such, its devotees would be seen to enrich society in the way that any devotional group might do.

The problem is the imposition of this group's beliefs indiscriminately on society at large using state power. That needs legal regulations, money subsidies, state agencies and educational compulsion.

Result: not good on any level...........
 

Barroso

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"Compulsion" is the worm in the apple.

A scenario in which children from English-speaking families are introduced to Irish and at a certain point are free to continue with it in school or not, is better than the present system of compulsion.

The fact that it needs to be compulsory all through school, and that the Irish-language enthusiasts and state activists are so afraid of free choice, is evidence in itself that policy is radically distorted.

The need to block the wishes of some parents' who want their child to concentrate on another subject for the Leaving Cert, and the fear that the system of blocking them is being weakened, is enough evidence to condemn the present policy. It is against both the norms of freedom and the norms of good education practice and should end.
There is nothing more compulsory in the Irish state than the English language.
If you don't believe me, go down to your local post office, court house, garda station or social welfare office and try speaking to them in any other language.
If you are in the Gaeltacht, there is some chance you might be attended in Irish, otherwise forget it.

The whole business about "compusory Irish" is a complete red herring; it is just another excrescence of the Irish postcolonial state which is trying to make me a foreigner in my own country almost a century after "independence". It's really very similar to the Latin American republics which were set up by the offspring of the colonists.
There is a class in Ireland who hark back to Mother England still, just as there is a class in Latin America who hark back to their Spanish and Portuguese roots.
 


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