Eamon de valera friend of the country or enemy of the people

dee444

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what is your take on de valera?

was he good for ireland or did he he just keep us in poverty?
 


Ulysses

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Friend of the country and enemy of the people. 8)

Now where have I heard that before? :D
 

Risteard

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He was a traitor.
 

Risteard

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I didn't say that.
 
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You also didn't not say it.

Could you please outline your definition of 'traitor' then?

If you consider deValera, a anglophobe who fought in 1916, was President of the Irish Republic during the Tan War, and who dismantled the Irish Free State and turned it into a Republic, was a traitor, then presumably you think any member of the parties that take up seats in the Dail are traitors.

So presumably you think anyone who votes for these traitors is also a traitor.
 

Risteard

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De Valera declared war on the Republic.
 
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When?

Anyway, that completely failed to answer my question. If you do actually know your own criteria for what makes a person a traitor, would you please outline it.
 

padraig

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Re: Eamon de valera friend of the country or enemy of the pe

dee444 said:
what is your take on de valera?

was he good for ireland or did he he just keep us in poverty?
He was the worst thing to ever happen to this country, Ireland would have been better off if dev had been shot in 1916.

He was responsible for the waste of many lives by starting the civil war.

He give the Catholic Church too much say in the way this country was run.
 

pluralist

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As Padraig said he was too beholden to the Catholic Church and held the country back economically with his bizarre vision of a protectionist Ireland filled with comely maidens dancing at cross-roads. Mind you, a few on here appear to be happy to go back to that Ireland with their anti-immigrant ranting.
 
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Mind you, a few on here appear to be happy to go back to that Ireland with their anti-immigrant ranting.
that's a bit of a misrepresentation. the argument of most of the anti-immigration posters seems to be that the short-term positive benefits to the economy from immigration, will be out-wieghed in the long-term by negative effects on the standard of living as a result of housing shortages, traffic problems, and the possible creation of 'ghetto' areas with high crime rates and social welfare cultures, as developed in the UK, France and the USA.
 

pluralist

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onemancommittee said:
that's a bit of a misrepresentation. the argument of most of the anti-immigration posters seems to be that the short-term positive benefits to the economy from immigration, will be out-wieghed in the long-term by negative effects on the standard of living as a result of housing shortages, traffic problems, and the possible creation of 'ghetto' areas with high crime rates and social welfare cultures, as developed in the UK, France and the USA.
Unfortunately we already have such ghettos in Ireland, as a matter of fact we had them long before immigrants started arriving round about the mid 1990's.

Coming back to Dev again, on the plus side his legacy was a good Constitution which in my view has served us well down through the years.
 

Catalpa

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pluralist said:
As Padraig said he was too beholden to the Catholic Church and held the country back economically with his bizarre vision of a protectionist Ireland filled with comely maidens dancing at cross-roads. Mind you, a few on here appear to be happy to go back to that Ireland with their anti-immigrant ranting.
Also

He was the worst thing to ever happen to this country, Ireland would have been better off if dev had been shot in 1916.

He was responsible for the waste of many lives by starting the civil war.

He give the Catholic Church too much say in the way this country was run.


Listen Bright Sparks Dev was one of the greatest Irishmen of the Century.

His attitude to the Catholic Church was one shared by the vast majority of his countrymen. Its a complete nonsense to portray him as hardline bigot on Religion. By the standards of the time he lived in he was mainstream.

Dev did not start the War no more than anyone else did.

He was pushed aside when the Treaty was signed even though the Plenopotentories knew they were supposed to refer the document back to Dublin before signing.

The Oath was a humiliation which had all the TDs stuck together would have been tweaked by the British to avoid loss of face.

IMO the Irish Delegation was outmaneuvered by the wily Lyold George and the vastly more experienced British Cabinet.

As for Economic Protectionism it served its purpose during the early years but by the mid 1960s it was an anachronism.

Even Garret Fitzgerald could see the merit of it and I don't anyone could accuse him of being a fan of Devs!

It was Dev BTW as Taoiseach that gave the go ahead for the First Programme of Economic Expansion in 1958 run by Sean Lemass, TK Whitaker and Dr James Ryan (MOF).


anti-immigrant ranting


Trust someone to bring the Immigrants into it! :roll:
 

BarryW

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Re: Eamon de valera friend of the country or enemy of the pe

dee444 said:
was he good for ireland or did he he just keep us in poverty?
Thats the stupidest question I ever heard.

Every historian from Tim Pat Coogan to Dr. Dermot Keogh has agreed on the latter
 

Rocky

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Dev did not start the War no more than anyone else did.
"Wade through Irish blood through the blood of Irish Soldiers"
No Dev did nothing to start the Civil War!!. Hi raised tensions, which made the civil war more likely. He also gave support to it went speeches like that, which more Irish people support it. If Dev didn't exist the Civil war probably would have happened, however it would have been a lot shorter and a lot less bloody.

He was pushed aside when the Treaty was signed even though the Plenopotentories knew they were supposed to refer the document back to Dublin before signing.
Dev messed up their powers by telling Collins and Co. that they needed cabinet authorisation and told Lloyd George and the Brits that they didn't. This allowed Lloyd George to force them the sign the treaty, then and there. Another stupid mistake by Dev Valera.


The Oath was a humiliation which had all the TDs stuck together would have been tweaked by the British to avoid loss of face.
No it wasn't and even if it was Dev Valera signed it in 1928.

IMO the Irish Delegation was outmaneuvered by the wily Lyold George and the vastly more experienced British Cabinet.
Not really they managed to get more off The Brits then Lloyd George had ever intended to give them. Anyway whatÂ’s that got to do with Dev Valera?

As for Economic Protectionism it served its purpose during the early years but by the mid 1960s it was an anachronism.
If by serve its purpose you mean destroy the Irish economy and prevent it from growing, then you're right it did serve its purpose. :roll:
 

The YFGer

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Dev was the man who tore this country apart, his lack of foresight and innovation caused the people who looked up to and followed him to forget the reason so many men took up arms to free this country.

It would have been a foregone conclusion that if dev and mick collins had stayed side by side we would now be living in a 32 county republic. Nobody can srgue with that.
 


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