ECJ: Banning the headscarf is legal.

livingstone

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First, Felixness didn't say they've hidden themselves away. Quite the opposite, if you read her carefully. And as a general observation, wearing clothes that differ from the general run of the population is a very bad way of hiding.

Second, Muslims do segregate themselves from the rest of society in numerous and powerful ways. They may be able to share an office space with you, but women who wear hijabs will not drink alcohol, or eat pork.
By that logic we should ban teetotal vegetarians.

This means they are very unlikely to even go to a pub or restaurant with you. (One needn't follow from the other, but with Islam it does).
First, I'm not sure why you think not eating pork means a muslim woman is unlikely to go to a restaurant with me. I've been to Christmas lunches with the women in my office who wear hijabs. True, they didn't drink. But then neither did the recovering alcoholic I work with. True, they didn't eat pork. But neither did the vegetarian I work with. Another colleague had a fish dish - and despite the fact that I hate seafood, I managed to go to the same restaurant as him. Shocking, isn't it.

They are unlikely to spend any length of time alone with you socially. They cannot marry you unless YOU convert to Islam.
So? I don't spend a lot of time alone with many of my colleagues. I also don't intend to marry any of my colleagues. If I worked with an Orthodox Jew, they would also not marry me.
 


A Voice

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By that logic we should ban teetotal vegetarians.
That doesn't follow at all, of course.

First, I'm not sure why you think not eating pork means a muslim woman is unlikely to go to a restaurant with me. I've been to Christmas lunches with the women in my office who wear hijabs. True, they didn't drink. But then neither did the recovering alcoholic I work with. True, they didn't eat pork. But neither did the vegetarian I work with. Another colleague had a fish dish - and despite the fact that I hate seafood, I managed to go to the same restaurant as him. Shocking, isn't it.
These Christmas lunches. They were work parties, right?

Re your bafflement as to why not eating pork means a muslim woman is unlikely to go to a restaurant with you, I can only reply that's it's because that is the widespread practice. Muslim women wearing headscarves will not eat in haram restaurants. So when you go to the Bistro or the pizzeria or the Chinese next time, have a good look around.

Of course they'll go to a Muslim-run restaurant. Though not very likely just with you.

So? I don't spend a lot of time alone with many of my colleagues. I also don't intend to marry any of my colleagues. If I worked with an Orthodox Jew, they would also not marry me.
And if there were anything like as many of them as there as Muslims, or likely to be, then it might be more of a talking point.
 
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livingstone

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That doesn't follow at all, of course.
The objection raised was that a Muslim woman wearing a hijab doesn't drink or eating pork. Neither do teetotal vegetarians but no one tells them they can't put what they like on their heads.

These Christmas lunches. They were work parties, right?
Yes, but not compulsory. And they didn't seem to have a problem being in a restaurant with non-Muslims, including some of whom were eating pork and drinking wine.

Re your bafflement as to why not eating pork means a muslim woman is unlikely to go to a restaurant with you, I can only reply that's it's because that is the widespread practice. Muslim women wearing headscarves will not eat in haram restaurants. So when you go to the Bistro or the pizzeria or the Chinese next time, have a good look around.

Of course they'll go to a Muslim-run restaurant. Though not very likely just with you.
Now you're just completely at odds with my experience, and I'd query how much interaction with people in hijabs you actually have. I live by a Nandos, a Frankie and Bennys, a Bella Italia, a Pizza Express and a greasy spoon. It's pretty common to see women in hijabs in all of those. Similarly, the women I work with have no problem eating in the office canteen, nor, as I pointed out, in going out to Chirstmas lunch.

And if there were anything like as many of them as there as Muslims, or likely to be, then it might be more of a talking point.
Lots of orthodox jewish people in North London, for example. Should be ban the yarulke in north London?
 

Clanrickard

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Sure. I don't have a particular issue with the judgment as such, since I think it's probably a matter for national parliaments to decide if they want to allow employers to ban religious symbols or not. But if a woman wears a hijab, or a man wears a yarmulke, I'm not sure that should cause tensions amongst reasonable people.

If you're my colleague and you come to work wearing a crucifix around your neck and I have a problem with that that causes tension, then the problem lies firmly with me, not with you. Obviously if you took expressing your religious beliefs further, to the point that you were seeking to convert me, or expressing disapproval of my religious beliefs etc then that would be another matter. But simply having a religious symbol wouldn't cause tensions amongst reasonable people.
Yes but the world has lots of unreasonable people and they also work.
 

A Voice

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The objection raised was that a Muslim woman wearing a hijab doesn't drink or eating pork. Neither do teetotal vegetarians but no one tells them they can't put what they like on their heads.
You said "ban teetotal vegetarians."

Yes, but not compulsory. And they didn't seem to have a problem being in a restaurant with non-Muslims, including some of whom were eating pork and drinking wine.
Thank you.

Now you're just completely at odds with my experience, and I'd query how much interaction with people in hijabs you actually have. I live by a Nandos, a Frankie and Bennys, a Bella Italia, a Pizza Express and a greasy spoon. It's pretty common to see women in hijabs in all of those. Similarly, the women I work with have no problem eating in the office canteen, nor, as I pointed out, in going out to Chirstmas lunch.
A work gig, as previously established.

If you're saying there's loads of hijabs in all those restaurants - and they're not halal, as the McDonald's in Luton was forced to become to retain market share in the 80s, and numerous others since - then fair enough. But it doesn't tally with my experience.

Lots of orthodox jewish people in North London, for example. Should be ban the yarulke in north London?
The point was whether it is a problem that you can't marry one if you want to without converting. Given the massive difference in numbers it's less of a talking point for kaffirs just at the minute.
 

livingstone

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Yes but the world has lots of unreasonable people and they also work.
Of course. But the answer when unreasonable people make things difficult at work is to tackle the unreasonable person, not the reasonable one to whom they object.

There's objectively nothing unreasonable about wearing a crucifix or a yarmulke or a hijab. That might be different if communication were impeded, or if they were harassing people about their beliefs. But just wearing a religious symbol doesn't objectively affect anyone, in any way, at all.
 

livingstone

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You said "ban teetotal vegetarians."
Yes, just like the poster in question was suggesting banning muslim women from wearing the veil. If you agree with that poster that the hijab should be banned because they won't eat pork or drink booze, then that's pretty analogous with banning someone from being vegetarian and teetotal.

Thank you.
You're welcome. Hopefully you've now learned that Muslims can and do choose to go to restaurants with non-Muslims.

A work gig, as previously established.
Irrelevant. It was a choice they made, just like all of us.

If you're saying there's loads of hijabs in all those restaurants - and they're not halal, as the McDonald's in Luton was forced to become to retain market share in the 80s, and numerous others since - then fair enough. But it doesn't tally with my experience.
I didn't say loads, but it's certainly common. As I say, it sounds like your actual experience of talking to people who wear hijabs, or knowing much about how they actually live their lives, is pretty limited.

The point was whether it is a problem that you can't marry one if you want to without converting. Given the massive difference in numbers it's less of a talking point for kaffirs just at the minute.
The minute that we recognise some general obligation to marry, you'd have a point.

Here's the thing, anyone has a right to refuse to marry anyone else, for whatever reason they choose to. That can be a Catholic who refuses to marry a non-Catholic, or a Muslim who refuses to marry a non-Muslim, or an environmentalist who refuses to marry someone who drives a big car, or a fan of musical theatre who refuses to marry a fan of rock.

The idea that the problem with the hijab is that muslim women won't marry you is an absolute nonsense. And get this, even if you force women not to wear the hijab, they still probably won't marry you!
 

A Voice

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Yes, just like the poster in question was suggesting banning muslim women from wearing the veil. If you agree with that poster that the hijab should be banned because they won't eat pork or drink booze, then that's pretty analogous with banning someone from being vegetarian and teetotal.
You said "ban teetotal vegetarians." Ban them from what?


You're welcome. Hopefully you've now learned that Muslims can and do choose to go to restaurants with non-Muslims.
To haram restaurants? In proportionately similar numbers to kaffir women?

Irrelevant. It was a choice they made, just like all of us.
Come now. You misunderstand the world of work if you really believe that.
And if these were personal, private Christmas lunches with non-colleagues that would be an entirely different thing.

I didn't say loads, but it's certainly common. As I say, it sounds like your actual experience of talking to people who wear hijabs, or knowing much about how they actually live their lives, is pretty limited.
If it's "common" and we're talking about London (are we?) then it's loads.

I wouldn't assume too much about my actual experience of talking to people who wear hijabs, if I were you.

The minute that we recognise some general obligation to marry, you'd have a point.

Here's the thing, anyone has a right to refuse to marry anyone else, for whatever reason they choose to. That can be a Catholic who refuses to marry a non-Catholic, or a Muslim who refuses to marry a non-Muslim, or an environmentalist who refuses to marry someone who drives a big car, or a fan of musical theatre who refuses to marry a fan of rock.

The idea that the problem with the hijab is that muslim women won't marry you is an absolute nonsense. And get this, even if you force women not to wear the hijab, they still probably won't marry you!
You haven't identified "the thing" at all. In fact, you have missed the point entirely. Muslim women marrying kaffirs is prohibited for all Muslim women by Islamic law. This is not about you or me doing or not doing something "for whatever reason" we choose.

Indeed. . .
 

livingstone

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You said "ban teetotal vegetarians." Ban them from what?
Being teetotal vegetarians. Just like the poster I was responding to wanted to ban Hijab-wearing muslim women from wearing hijabs, which you seemed to support on the basis that they don't drink alcohol or eat pork.

To haram restaurants? In proportionately similar numbers to kaffir women?
I don't know what a haram restaurant is. The restaurant that we were in was a pretty normal, run of the mill gastropub type place.

Come now. You misunderstand the world of work if you really believe that.
I think you misunderstand the world of work if you think folk who don't want to be at a christmas lunch can't easily find ways to avoid it.

And if these were personal, private Christmas lunches with non-colleagues that would be an entirely different thing.
If it makes you feel better, I've also been to restaurants - and pubs - with Muslims who weren't colleagues.

If it's "common" and we're talking about London (are we?) then it's loads.

I wouldn't assume too much about my actual experience of talking to people who wear hijabs, if I were you.
All I can do is assume based on what you post. Baseless assertions suggest you've not actually spoken with many women who wear hijabs.

You haven't identified "the thing" at all. In fact, you have missed the point entirely. Muslim women marrying kaffirs is prohibited for all Muslim women by Islamic law. This is not about you or me doing or not doing something "for whatever reason" we choose.

Indeed. . .
So? Orthodox Jews marrying non-Jews is prohibited by Jewish law. The point is that people are free to choose whether they want to be bound by a moral code or not. If a muslim woman chooses not to marry a non-muslim, that doesn't affect you or me in the slightest.

Society should be entirely indifferent to that choice.

Now of course there is an issue with the extent to which people - particularly women - in some muslim communities are free to make that choice. That is certainly worthy of discussion. But when you insist on trying to pretend it's all muslim women, or that the choice alone (regardless of how free it is) is problematic, that's when your argument falls apart.
 

Emily Davison

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Muslim women are forbidden from marrying non-Muslim men according to Islamic law. That is a big, big problem for integration and a dagger at the heart of multi-culti claptrap.

Well well well it isn't so long ago there was war if a Catholic women wanted to marry a Protestant.
 


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