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ECJ says Muslim headscarf can be banned at work. (non binding)

Clanrickard

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Workplace ban on Muslim headscarf backed by EU court

A very welcome development that clarifies the situation. Although the court may not follow the opinion in practise they do. The opinion says that headscarfs can be banned to ensure religious neutrality as in the case G4 barred all religous symbols. . The judge also said in certain circumstances it would not be appropriate to ban the neadscarf such as working in a call centre but it could be where the Muslima had to meet clients. It also depends.........

A country’s “national identity” should be taken into account when determining whether bans on headscarves broke EU rules, which would give some countries more leeway than others.
which I find strange given we are all in the EU together.
 


Gin Soaked

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Hmm..

Ban face coverings, yes, but headscarves, no. This is just a further barrier to what scant independence many women of this faith have.

Working muslim women are a conduit to moderation and inclusion.


This is not good.
 

Trainwreck

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Hmm..

Ban face coverings, yes, but headscarves, no. This is just a further barrier to what scant independence many women of this faith have.

Working muslim women are a conduit to moderation and inclusion.


This is not good.
Why shouldn't an employer be within their rights to stipulate a dress code?
 

freewillie

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Does that mean we have to remove the balaclavas now when we go in to the bank?
 

former wesleyan

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Hmm..

Ban face coverings, yes, but headscarves, no. This is just a further barrier to what scant independence many women of this faith have.

Working muslim women are a conduit to moderation and inclusion.


This is not good.
Agreed.
 

Fractional Reserve

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Workplace ban on Muslim headscarf backed by EU court

A very welcome development that clarifies the situation. Although the court may not follow the opinion in practise they do. The opinion says that headscarfs can be banned to ensure religious neutrality as in the case G4 barred all religous symbols. . The judge also said in certain circumstances it would not be appropriate to ban the neadscarf such as working in a call centre but it could be where the Muslima had to meet clients. It also depends.........



which I find strange given we are all in the EU together.
Great
 

sondagefaux

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I'm not sure why the OP feels the need to frame this Advocate General's Opinion as a ban on Muslim headscarves - it permits a ban on all clothing or jewellery etc which could be used to proclaim the wearer's religious affiliation, so it applies to all religions, not just Islam.

It's right there in the sub-heading of the article.

Non-binding opinion finds ban is legal as long as other symbols of religion are also barred
Holy Marys who want to wear their crosses to work while giving out about that Muslim wan 'flaunting' her religion by wearing a headscarf will be in for a right land. petunia
 

stakerwallace

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I'm not sure why the OP feels the need to frame this Advocate General's Opinion as a ban on Muslim headscarves - it permits a ban on all clothing or jewellery etc which could be used to proclaim the wearer's religious affiliation, so it applies to all religions, not just Islam.

It's right there in the sub-heading of the article.



Holy Marys who want to wear their crosses to work while giving out about that Muslim wan 'flaunting' her religion by wearing a headscarf will be in for a right land. petunia
Will nuns have to leave their habits in the convent when they teach in schools and turn out in civvies?
 

sondagefaux

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Will nuns have to leave their habits in the convent when they teach in schools and turn out in civvies?
Employers, and states, are free to choose whether to implement a ban or not.

If they do choose to implement a ban, all symbols of all religions must be banned in the workplace.

This Opinion (which is not binding on the ECJ, although the ECJ follows the Opinions of Advocates General in almost all cases) makes it clear that you can't single out just one religion if you want to ban the wearing of religious symbols in the workplace.

You either ban the lot or you don't ban any.

So if an Irish employer decides to ban Muslim headscarves, it also has to ban habits, crosses etc worn by nuns in the workplace.

But the employer doesn't have to ban the wearing of religious symbols in the workplace - they get to choose for themselves, unless their national law (not EU law) forces them to do so, as it does in France.
 

GDPR

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Holy Marys who want to wear their crosses to work while giving out about that Muslim wan 'flaunting' her religion by wearing a headscarf will be in for a right land. petunia
I have no religion . what if I want to wear a cross to work because I like it's style as jewellery ?
 

Trainwreck

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I have no religion . what if I want to wear a cross to work because I like it's style as jewellery ?
Presumably they have a right to ask you to hide it or remove it, regardless of the reason - be it that they don't want religious symbols, or because they don't want employees wearing jewelry, or for whatever reason.
 

Clanrickard

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Will nuns have to leave their habits in the convent when they teach in schools and turn out in civvies?
If the school had a rule that there are no religous symbols then yes. The court has partly left it to the employer. I have always felt that the employers dress code is the dress code. You dont like it get another job.
 

maxflinn

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Does that mean we have to remove the balaclavas now when we go in to the bank?
It's only fair we do as they remove theirs before taking our money.
 

sondagefaux

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I have no religion . what if I want to wear a cross to work because I like it's style as jewellery ?
If there's a ban on wearing religious symbols in the workplace, you can't wear one, no matter what your reason for wearing it is. If that wasn't the case, then any Muslim woman could say that she wears a headscarf because she likes its style.

I don't agree with telling adults what to wear unless there's some compelling need to do so for reasons of safety or security.

But if a state or a company is going to go down that road, then it should do so in a way that doesn't single out one particular religion.
 

GDPR

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If there's a ban on wearing religious symbols in the workplace, you can't wear one, no matter what your reason for wearing it is. If that wasn't the case, then any Muslim woman could say that she wears a headscarf because she likes its style.

I don't agree with telling adults what to wear unless there's some compelling need to do so for reasons of safety or security.

But if a state or a company is going to go down that road, then it should do so in a way that doesn't single out one particular religion.


Presumably they have a right to ask you to hide it or remove it, regardless of the reason - be it that they don't want religious symbols, or because they don't want employees wearing jewelry, or for whatever reason.
but its not a religious symbol to me. To me it's a gangsta rapper or Roman brutality symbol ...
 

Mercurial

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I thought headscarves were supposed to be a cultural, rather than a religious, tradition?


which I find strange given we are all in the EU together.
Countries tend to have a lot of leeway when it comes to these kinds of cases. It's similar to how the margin of appreciation works in the ECHR. A country like France, for example, can say something like "we have a strong secular tradition in this country...blah blah blah...therefore a ban on religious symbols is in keeping with this ethos..." and they can usually get away with it.
 

Mercurial

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On the topic more generally, one could ask what the point is of requiring people to hide their religious identities when they perform their job. What would allowing them to display symbols of their faith actually signify, beyond a personal fact about the employee, and what interest does an employer have in concealing such facts?

To be justified, there must be some explanation as to how a display of religious faith would make a person less able to do his or her job in an effective way*. It's difficult to imagine how wearing a headscarf (or a turban, or displaying a cross) would, in most cases.



*And not all explanations should count - for example, it isn't a legitimate aim of an employer to conceal the fact that his employee is a Muslim on the basis that some of his customers might be prejudiced against Muslims.
 

roc_

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Hmm..

Ban face coverings, yes, but headscarves, no. This is just a further barrier to what scant independence many women of this faith have.

Working muslim women are a conduit to moderation and inclusion.


This is not good.
Absolutely agreed.

Also employers have important social responsibilities to uphold for their part - ensuring an environment that promotes the dignity and self-respect of the people who work for them being a primary one.

An increasing number of people these days seem to think that employing others should grant one carte blanche to be a tyrant.

Here's an apposite quote on this:

"... We have come a long way from the time when the businessman was content to urge capitalism as a permissive theory, as an assertion of the claim that he had his due and dignified place in society, and that he must not be passed by either the snobbery of the aristocrat, or the snobbery of the intellectual.

However, it seems that his demands for room to live have turned into demands that his way of life be recognised as the basis of life of the entire community and that those who are not in accord with him should be punished with the whips of a new inquisition..."
- N.Wiener.
 


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