Educate Together to pilot Ireland’s first primary school course about atheism.

Glenshane4

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That's been the way for a long time in the state. Public money underpinning catholic dogma in the state.
Public money, much of it paid by Catholic taxpayers, underpins the cost of education in Catholic schools, Protestant schools, Educate Together schools, Irish medium schools and in Muslim schools. Public money funds the education of almost all children in Eire. Where those children are educated is left to parental choice. Please respect parental choice and the right of Catholics to be Catholics.
 


Glenshane4

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"Aided and abetted by the COI, which benefited by having its own teacher training college funded by the state."

What could be wrong with that? People have a right to train to be teachers without having to run the gauntlet of sectarian harassment or sectarian discrimination.

"Also the ratio of 1:5 CoI reps on the above JMB council (which is an over representation; they being only about 2% of the population)"

There is nothing new about that. In 1831 when the government of the UK, which then included the whole of Ireland, set up the system of "National schools" the Board of Education consisted of 2 Catholics, 2 Church of Ireland, 2 Presbyterians and 1 Methodist - for an Ireland which was about 80% Catholic.

"Also the kids attending CoI schools getting free bus transport to their preferred school, while everyone else would only get a place on the bus to their nearest school."

May I suggest that the word "only" is in the wrong place? I think you meant to put that word immediately after the word "bus." I thought that bit of Prod privilege had ended many years ago. Why has it not been challenged in Court?

"Also the original carve-up of the integrated national schools between RCC and CoI, soon after the foundation of the state. e.g. the model schools."

Please clarify. The Eire State inherited 9 schools from the British State. Five of those have been managed by the Catholic Church, the other Four by the Church of Ireland. Is that what you are referring to? Is there any reason why the State should not take over control of these 9 State-owned schools or transfer their control to other education providers?

"All these benefits have been great for the CoI, but actually the RCC have benefited far more. Because the CoI has supplied a veneer of equality and legitimacy for the state funding of the other 98% of schools."

What could be wrong with the State funding the education of the children of Catholics to the same degree as it funds the education of the children of non-Catholics? Are you questioning the right of Catholics to keep their dear, defenceless little children safe from anti-Catholics?

"These have implemented RC control and doctrine on the vast majority of the population, over the years and the generations."

What could be wrong with the Catholic Church controlling the schools which it owns and using those schools to promote Catholicism - which is the reason for the founding of those schools?


"Thankfully due to the advent of alternative management (the alternative so-called patrons) in recent years, the duopoly is ending. But that is due to public demand, despite state policy, and not because of state policy."

What could be wrong with State policy being influenced by public demand? That is called "democracy." So long as the "alternative management" is for schools not owned by the Catholic Church, I welcome the development. The big problem has been that many of those who resent Catholic control over Catholic schools have failed to provide secular schools. They did not put up, they did not shut up.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Public money, much of it paid by Catholic taxpayers, underpins the cost of education in Catholic schools, Protestant schools, Educate Together schools, Irish medium schools and in Muslim schools. Public money funds the education of almost all children in Eire. Where those children are educated is left to parental choice. Please respect parental choice and the right of Catholics to be Catholics.
Public money is neither catholic nor protestant, muslim or hindu.
 

Buchaill Dana

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Yes, there is a reason to ask the opinion of the Catholic Church about education policy. It owns most of the schools in Eire. Another reason is that many citizens of Eire are Catholics who, unlike you, live in Eire.
Sigh. No it doesn't
 

Buchaill Dana

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What could be wrong with RTE broadcasting something to acknowledge the Muslim religion? The Catholic Church does not own RTE, it does own nearly all the schools which it controls.
No it doesn't
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Please remember that before you post any more about public funding of Catholic schools.
I'll post what I like. Only an idiot would propose special treatment for one religion and then whinge about madrassas when they appear in the same space. Unfortunately for the catholic church that's all they appear to be left with.

Unsurprisingly.
 

recedite

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Or perhaps you think that teaching the children of Catholics is not a service to the State?
It is not the business of the state to promote any particular religion. Catholic children are not so special that they can't attend schools with any other children.
The RC religion is not so important to the national interest that it must be funded to educate and indoctrinate catholic and other children (often there is only one state funded school for all the kids in a local area)

BTW private property is protected, but public good and the provision of public infatructure overrides that. Hence CPO orders are commonly used.
But that's not even necessary in this situation. All it takes is the withdrawal of direct state funding from religious enterprises.
As you already pointed out, religious schools could and would continue to exist if the state money followed the citizens, and they chose their own education provider. Its a fair compromise. But there has to be at least one non-religious alternative school in every locality - a school that is open to everybody and acceptable to everybody.
 

Glenshane4

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"It is not the business of the state to promote any particular religion."

I agree. But it is the business of the State to provide as much funding for the education of the child of Catholics as it provides for the education of the child of non-Catholics.

"Catholic children are not so special that they can't attend schools with any other children."

The defenceless little children of Catholics have a right to go to school without their having to run the gauntlet of sectarian discrimination or sectarian harassment. That is most likely to be achieved if they attend schools which are controlled by Catholics and all of whose teachers are practising Catholics and all of whose pupils/students are the children of practising Catholics.

"The RC religion is not so important to the national interest that it must be funded to educate and indoctrinate catholic and other children (often there is only one state funded school for all the kids in a local area)"

The State funds nothing, taxpayers do. Many taxpayers are Catholics who also contribute to their parishes to help maintain the parish schools. Catholics have a right to expect that the State will not provide less funding for the education of their children than it provides for the education of heretics. If the only taxpayer funded school in a locality is the Catholic school, that is hardly the fault of Catholics. Solving the educational problems of non-Catholics is not the responsibility of the Catholic Church.

"BTW private property is protected, but public good and the provision of public infrastructure overrides that. Hence CPO orders are commonly used."

How often have CPO orders been used to seize the property of a religious organisation?

"But that's not even necessary in this situation. All it takes is the withdrawal of direct state funding from religious enterprises."

So you think that the State should spend less on the education of children who attend denominational schools than it spends on the education of children who attend secular schools. How compatible with the Constitution would that be? How well would that go down with practising Catholics or practising Prods?

"As you already pointed out, religious schools could and would continue to exist if the state money followed the citizens, and they chose their own education provider. Its a fair compromise."

I would see that as a progressive educational reform. Indeed, I like your suggestion that the same policy be applied to the UK Health Service.

"But there has to be at least one non-religious alternative school in every locality - a school that is open to everybody and acceptable to everybody."

It is not the duty of the Catholic Church to provide a non-religious school. Nor is it the duty of any Protestant Church. Nor is it the duty of any non-Christian Church. Nor is it the duty of the State. The State did not provide schools for Catholics. Nor did it provide schools for Protestants. Why should it provide schools for Secularists? Secularists have as much right to set-up schools as anyone else. Why should the State enable them to free-load on Catholic parishes?

How could a school staffed by anti-Catholics be acceptable to Catholics?
 
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Lumpy Talbot

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I'm well aware you aren't even remotely catholic, Glenshane. You've just been pulling the same old joke for years now.
 

Glenshane4

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I'm well aware you aren't even remotely catholic, Glenshane. You've just been pulling the same old joke for years now.
Where is your evidence that I am not a Catholic, a real Catholic, an Ulster Catholic, a victim of Prod tyranny and of Eire treachery?

As for "pulling the same old joke," I do not joke. I disapprove of jokes: I am a Catholic, a real Catholic. Prod tyranny is not a joking matter.
 


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