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Emigration "brain drain" spurred mainly by unemployment but also by high taxes and cost of living


patslatt

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Emigration "brain drain" spurred mainly by unemployment but also by high taxes and cost of living

See UK facing middle-class brain drain as professionals seek better lives abroad - Telegraph Half the high emigration of UK citizens is among managerial and professional workers,a brain drain. An important motive for them is the low cost of living and low taxes abroad.

An interesting question is what comparisons can be made with Irish emigration.Clearly,many Irish are emigrating just to find work. But even in the economic boom when jobs were plentiful,there was steady emigration of about 25,000 a year. Were they typically footloose Irish seeking improved career opportunities or joining numerous relatives and friends in the Irish diaspora?

Could some of those emigrating today be in highly paid occupations fleeing high Irish income taxes and cost of living like their UK counterparts? Irish income taxes are far more punitive than UK high income taxes.At least in the UK,the last budget signalled a welcome change in direction with a cut of 5 percentage points in the top income tax rate to 45% and a promise to restore the top 40% rate in time. As for cost of living,Ireland may now have an advantage in housing and rents compared to the UK, given the collapse in Irish housing prices.

If the government wants to avoid an emigration brain drain coupled with a decline in skilled immigration,especially among multinational company skilled workers,it ought to hold out the hope of tax cuts in uncompetitive top income tax rates. There is no point in raising taxes if in the long run people emigrate to avoid tax, cut back on working hours and curb business expansions that create jobs.
 
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Howya

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While some of the factors mentioned (tax, cost of living) have an impact, they are not the sole drivers. My experience is that people tend to emigrate as they believe there are better opportunities elsewhere. (In some cases where there is no work here and in others because there are better jobs elsewhere)
 

cottage_economist

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Is there a brain drain? I know of no one in a well paid, secure job who is thinking of emigrating, but know a great many with no job who are getting out.

Furthermore, many of these middle level jobs e.g. hospital consultants are paid a good deal more than in other countries, and so would hardly benefit from emigration.

Even assuming there is a brain drain, with 300-400,000 unemployed their positions would quickly be filled by brains of equivalent power, so they would not be missed. We can but hope that those getting on the cattle boat are those bankers, speculators, gamblers and thieves who have brought this country down.
 

truthisfree

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I am planning on emigrating, I want to start a new enterprise and after starting several here there is no way I would do so again, there is little or no respect here for starting anything new and very little enthusiasm for it either tbh...

Most of my colleauges have moved abroad and are doing way better because of it, until the work/social climate changes here there is zero point starting anything here.
 

patslatt

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I am planning on emigrating, I want to start a new enterprise and after starting several here there is no way I would do so again, there is little or no respect here for starting anything new and very little enthusiasm for it either tbh...

Most of my colleauges have moved abroad and are doing way better because of it, until the work/social climate changes here there is zero point starting anything here.
No respect or enthusiasm for starting anything new,you say. Can you be specific as this could be important for small business creation? Surely people in your social circle wished you well in your startups? If you found it difficult to get venture capital,well that's the situation in most countries. Bankers lend on collateral and business angel investors typically look for 40% annual returns on investment to make up for the very high failure rates of startups. Most businesses start out on a home loan and borrowings from friends and relatives.
 

TommyO'Brien

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High taxes? Ireland?

ROTFLMAO
 

Decko

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so true - high income tax - projects to abroad

No respect or enthusiasm for starting anything new,you say. Can you be specific as this could be important for small business creation? Surely people in your social circle wished you well in your startups? If you found it difficult to get venture capital,well that'thes the situation in most countries. Bankers lend on collateral and business angel investors typically look for 40% annual returns on investment to make up for the very high failure rates of startups. Most businesses start out on a home loan and borrowings from friends and relatives.


I work in FDI and this year so far i know of 2 projects that went abroad - one to Switzerland and another to the Netherlands - key factor wasnt the CT rate of 12,5% versus the rates abroad - but rather our very high personal rates of 52% - 55% and a risk of more increases

In Zurich , the income tax rates (while they vary per canton and municipality) are around a top rate of 28%

it will be sheer madness if Noonan raises income tax rates by 3% - it would bringin just 77mm (in theory ) but in practice would cost Revenue
 

General Urko

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As the IMF pointed out they have top level economists who have phds in that abysmal science from the top universities in the world working for 60K per year (albeit with savage expenses nand taxed favourably and never checked when they get things wrong). We have some public sector rubbish (not real public sector workers who do exist and indeed work!) on even more than that and they are not much beyond junior cert level of education! And no regular Irish folk have a chance of getting any kind of real job there, hence work for private sector rubbish or leave!
 
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As OP said there was a steady stream of people leaving during boom time and that hasn't really changed. Keeping meeting people who have left in the UK and futher afield.

2 years ago at Christmas met a guy from Limerick running a significant Food sales operation in Ireland for a North American multi national, he well qualified and his wife was Accountant / Actuary. Combined income was in excess of €200k a year.

Of course on here there will be those who say how dare they make that but given the study and Uni and afterwards for a significant period of time and sacrificing a lot then my attitude was fair ************************ing play. He said at the time that they paid enough tax and if Govt continued they would just emigrate. Found out 6 months ago they left for Canada.

Some on here will say no problem as just replace them but I know the Irish sales operation now run by a Brit who comes across every week and his wifes role now being done by someone within the company in London. No Irish tax now being paid.

I left under Garret the good, came back in 90's but have for a considerable period of time split my interests between Ireland and UK and have already put in place the tax avoidance plans for next 10 years when I start to dipose of assets.

Some of those who remain will have decent paying jobs but there are also a lot remaining because the state is paying them well enough not to have to make any kind of sacrifice.

The state will continue to lose out because people who build something see the state soley interested in raping as much as possible from people who start something.

Course when you have President Idiot in the US telling people who have started a business that " they didn't build that" then people start asking why bother.
 

bogtrotter

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As the IMF pointed out they have top level economists who have phds in that abysmal science from the top universities in the world working for 60K per year (albeit with savage expenses nand taxed favourably and never checked when they get things wrong). We have some public sector rubbish (not real public sector workers who do exist and indeed work!) on even more than that and they are not much beyond junior cert level of education! And no regular Irish folk have a chance of getting any kind of real job there, hence work for private sector rubbish or leave!
The vast majority of public sector workers have a 3rd level qualification and again the vast majority are on salaries under 36k...Check your facts
 

patslatt

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I work in FDI and this year so far i know of 2 projects that went abroad - one to Switzerland and another to the Netherlands - key factor wasnt the CT rate of 12,5% versus the rates abroad - but rather our very high personal rates of 52% - 55% and a risk of more increases

In Zurich , the income tax rates (while they vary per canton and municipality) are around a top rate of 28%

it will be sheer madness if Noonan raises income tax rates by 3% - it would bringin just 77mm (in theory ) but in practice would cost Revenue
SHORT TERMISM ON TAXES

The impact of higher taxes will be judged by how they help the government stay in power for a few years,regardless of long term damage to the economy.
 

patslatt

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Course when you have President Idiot in the US telling people who have started a business that " they didn't build that" then people start asking why bother.[/QUOTE]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obama was taken out of context by TV attack ads,part of the vast political advertising in the US. He pointed out in preceding sentences that the state provides infrastructure and an educated workforce that enables businesses to thrive. He should have added the word alone to clarify his meaning.
 
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patslatt

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The vast majority of public sector workers have a 3rd level qualification and again the vast majority are on salaries under 36k...Check your facts
HIGHLY PAID PUBLIC SERVANTS' PAY AND PENSIONS LOOTING TAXPAYERS
And the top half of the pay scale are looting the taxpayer with pay about 50% higher than the comparable private sector and pensions that would cost a million plus to buy from an insurer.
 
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Obama was taken out of context by TV attack ads,part of the vast political advertising in the US. He pointed out in preceding sentences that the state provides infrastructure and an educated workforce that enables businesses to thrive. He should have added the word alone to clarify his meaning.
Nope the former community organiser was quoted quite in context.

Given his anti business rhetoric it wasn't a shock.
 

General Urko

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The vast majority of public sector workers have a 3rd level qualification and again the vast majority are on salaries under 36k...Check your facts
Your name is very appropriate, check and read the posts fully before you comment on them,boss!:D
 
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HIGHLY PAID PUBLIC SERVANTS' PAY AND PENSIONS LOOTING TAXPAYERS
And the top half of the pay scale are looting the taxpayer with pay about 50% higher than the comparable private sector and pensions that would cost a million plus to buy from an insurer.
The Civil servant is a fixed cost and difficult to get rid of.
 

Orbit v2

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Is there a brain drain? I know of no one in a well paid, secure job who is thinking of emigrating, but know a great many with no job who are getting out.

Furthermore, many of these middle level jobs e.g. hospital consultants are paid a good deal more than in other countries, and so would hardly benefit from emigration.

Even assuming there is a brain drain, with 300-400,000 unemployed their positions would quickly be filled by brains of equivalent power, so they would not be missed. We can but hope that those getting on the cattle boat are those bankers, speculators, gamblers and thieves who have brought this country down.
We're considering it, not because of ideology but simply to make ends meet. My wife is self-employed (a translator) so she could shutdown here on a friday and start somewhere else on the Monday and her customers wouldn't notice the difference. I work for an MNC, which is a bit trickier, but I could move my job to another country. In both cases, there wouldn't be any back filling of our jobs by brains of equivalent power. Maybe our situation is unusual, but I doubt it's unique.
 

imback

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Sep 29, 2012
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See Half the high emigration of UK citizens is among managerial and professional workers,a brain drain. An important motive for them is the low cost of living and low taxes abroad.

An interesting question is what comparisons can be made with Irish emigration.Clearly,many Irish are emigrating just to find work. But even in the economic boom when jobs were plentiful,there was steady emigration of about 25,000 a year. Were they typically footloose Irish seeking improved career opportunities or joining numerous relatives and friends in the Irish diaspora?

Could some of those emigrating today be in highly paid occupations fleeing high Irish income taxes and cost of living like their UK counterparts? Irish income taxes are far more punitive than UK high income taxes.At least in the UK,the last budget signalled a welcome change in direction with a cut of 5 percentage points in the top income tax rate to 45% and a promise to restore the top 40% rate in time. As for cost of living,Ireland may now have an advantage in housing and rents compared to the UK, given the collapse in Irish housing prices.

If the government wants to avoid an emigration brain drain coupled with a decline in skilled immigration,especially among multinational company skilled workers,it ought to hold out the hope of tax cuts in uncompetitive top income tax rates. There is no point in raising taxes if in the long run people emigrate to avoid tax, cut back on working hours and curb business expansions that create jobs.
Don't forget to take tax credits into account, and not just the rate. I worked in several countries but I have never paid as little income tax as I do in Ireland. Even some of the most tax friendly cantons in Switzerland are not much better off in practice than Irish tax payers unless you are talking about people on 80,000+.
 

CreolePaddy

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I know these are harder questions to answer than "is there a brain drain?" but for me the better questions are "is Ireland the type of place where brains can make a difference?" and "what could be done to make Ireland a great country for innovation and creativity to be recognised and supported?" These just seem to be more helpful.
 

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