Employment: Quantity has recovered but quality & earnings have not .. quality declined

robut

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Fragile jobs recovery faces many threats as quality and earnings are hit

Irish jobs numbers are almost back to pre-crash levels but while the quantity of employment has recovered the quality seems to have declined over the past decade.
Average earnings are increasing at somewhere between a quarter and third of the rate at which they rose the last time employment levels were this high.

This relatively weak earnings growth almost certainly explains why the strong growth in employment hasn't fed through into income tax revenues, which were 1.9pc behind target for the first seven months of the year.
Wage growth is now much more subdued with average public sector earnings rising by 1.6pc and average private sector earnings by 1.5pc in the first quarter of 2017.
Interesting article, but no doubt many here will refute this as lazy journalism or shur its only the indo type stuff.

It is the first article I have seen addressing these issues here - that of EMPLOYMENT QUALITY and LOW EARNINGS. Not much appears in the media about this. All the gov and media seems worried about is the job numbers and the stats?

I believe we have sacrificed job quality in favour of stats and numbers. I believe we are now a low pay economy with many still supported by the state while working due to low pay .. all this more so outside of Dublin?

So is this a sustainable model - Low pay, stagnant wages and poor job quality? Seems to be good enough for the Government so as to make the stats look good employment number wise?

This topic also dove tails with the serious skills gap issue we have here amongst Irish indiginous workers.

But I think for many that horse has bolted? Particularly anyone in there mid 40s + or anyone of that age or older who got smacked down by job loss from the 08 crash? ( Ageism creeps in here too? )

I will add this here too for further discussion:

813,640 people ‘don’t want to work’ – and may be hindering wage growth

What do you call a stay-at-home parent, retiree, “gig economy” worker who wants to work more or someone who is simply fed up trying to find a job? According to the Central Bank, these are the “nonemployed” – and a high number of them in the Irish economy may be one reason behind the stagnation of earnings.

The Central Bank has created a new measure, the nonemployment index (NEI), to track trends related to “discouraged workers, passive job seekers and underemployed workers – individuals who are working part time but would like to work more hours”. It figures that there are 888,708 Irish people of working age – 15-64 – who fall into this category.
 
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freewillie

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It may be a straw in the wind but I know three men who left low paid jobs in the "services industry" to take up better paid jobs in construction
All along their employer was telling them there was no room for a pay rise and "you are lucky to have a job"
Now he will have to go and find some poor East European with little English to exploit
 

robut

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From January this year:

100,000 people trapped in underemployment – headline employment figures mask worrying trends

Although many employment indicators are positive, hidden within headline employment figures are a number of problems, including significant underemployment, high levels of low pay, and hundreds of thousands of workers earning a wage that is below subsistence level. A change of narrative is required. Improving headline employment figures are important, but the drive for stronger job creation should not come at the cost of diminishing job quality and security.

As employment numbers continue to improve, issues relating to the quality of employment and adequacy of income must figure more prominently in the policy discussion.
 

robut

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Britain’s joyless jobs market can be bad for your health

The inactivity rate — the share of working-age people who are neither employed nor unemployed (because they are not even looking for work) — is about 27 per cent in the US and the EU, but under 22 per cent in the UK.

Britain’s policymakers understandably laud this success. Yes, they say, not all new jobs are good quality. Some are badly paid. Some are low productivity. But any job is better than no job at all.

Yet what if that truism is not, in fact, true? This month, a study was published in the International Journal of Epidemiology by researchers from Manchester University who wanted to test it out. They followed a cohort of more than 1,000 people aged 35 to 75 who were unemployed in the recession of 2009-2010. Over the next few years they measured their health through questionnaires, blood tests and nurse health assessments.

The people who moved into poor quality work — low paid, low autonomy, high insecurity — had the highest levels of chronic stress, higher than the people who remained unemployed. People who moved into high quality work were the healthiest of all. In other words, unemployment is bad for you, but some jobs might actually be worse.
Applicable to here too I would say??
 

SamsonS

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Fragile jobs recovery faces many threats as quality and earnings are hit






Interesting article, but no doubt many here will refute this as lazy journalism or shur its only the indo type stuff.

It is the first article I have seen addressing these issues here - that of EMPLOYMENT QUALITY and LOW EARNINGS. Not much appears in the media about this. All the gov and media seems worried about is the job numbers and the stats?

I believe we have sacrificed job quality in favour of stats and numbers. I believe we are now a low pay economy with many still supported by the state while working due to low pay .. all this more so outside of Dublin?

So is this a sustainable model - Low pay, stagnant wages and poor job quality? Seems to be good enough for the Government so as to make the stats look good employment number wise?

This topic also dove tails with the serious skills gap issue we have here amongst Irish indiginous workers.

But I think for many that horse has bolted? Particularly anyone in there mid 40s + or anyone of that age or older who got smacked down by job loss from the 08 crash? ( Ageism creeps in here too? )

I will add this here too for further discussion:

813,640 people ‘don’t want to work’ – and may be hindering wage growth
On the central bank, posted on this earlier and think its needed - a measure of unemployment that includes those that are not being counted in the labour force. Would add about 2 % to unemployment rate.

On the underemployed, first time stats on this appeared was in 2008 - it was 63,700 people then, June 2008. Reach 156,000 in q2 2012. Now back to 92800, so still some way to go to get back to 08 levels.
 

bokuden

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FG policy: Drive people into low waged, transitory work just to keep a roof over their heads (if they're lucky).
 

Clanrickard

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Good friend lost his job this morning. Has lost 5 jobs since coming back to Ireland in 2000. Each time he got a new job and each time it is on inferior conditions.
 

im axeled

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Good friend lost his job this morning. Has lost 5 jobs since coming back to Ireland in 2000. Each time he got a new job and each time it is on inferior conditions.
this is the reality of the irish economy, meanwhile the civil service are getting wage ans ex's increases, three managers hired as often as possible in the hse, doctors becoming specialists overnight, all becoming hifg earners, meanwhile in rural ireland decimation is rife
 

dresden8

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this is the reality of the irish economy, meanwhile the civil service are getting wage ans ex's increases, three managers hired as often as possible in the hse, doctors becoming specialists overnight, all becoming hifg earners, meanwhile in rural ireland decimation is rife
Join a fncking union.
 

Gin Soaked

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FG policy: Drive people into low waged, transitory work just to keep a roof over their heads (if they're lucky).
Actually you have a point. Not sure what FG have done here that is different to what other slightly sane parties would do.

The single biggest failing since 2008 is the failure to cut the cost of living here. Keeping houses cheap would have done more than any Budget taxation tinkering.

At low salaries (sub 40k) there is no chance of raising a family independent of state support.

So that means the actual working class are confined to a sh1t quality of life.

And that is hugely socially destructive.

Tax is already very low on those incomes, but life on the dole once you have social housing is very similar.
 

bokuden

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We are heading into a world which will need very few people to work. We need a major cultural shift and rethink on the concept of work.
I completely agree. There still is plenty of work to be done: children and the infirm need to be cared for, streets need to be cleaned, services done etc, but the reality is that a diminishing amount of these are full time secure jobs. I think if we are to keep any sort of stability and decency in the industrial world, we will have to shift to a universal basic income in place of unemployment payments, pensions, grants etc and allow people to work part time, return to study,volunteer, run small businesses, care for the infirm etc.
 

SamsonS

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Hadn't read that report previously - this is the actual report.
https://www.socialjustice.ie/sites/default/files/attach/publication/4712/qem3.pdf

Basically uses the stats from the CSO, and then interprets as you'd expect. Wants, short term, a move towards living wage, but also wants that Basic Income examined, although don't see a figure suggested.
 

Ireland is Different!

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If you have a near endless stream of labour from the EU (and non-EU posing as students, coming in on holiday visas etc) that employers can tap into, then surely it should be no surprise to anyone on here (left or right) that wages/condistions will be driven down as far as possible.
Meanwhile the Taxpayer is called upon to fill the ever increasing gap between those lower paid jobs and the cost of living on this very expensive island.

It's not rocket science folks and it's only going to get worse
 

Uganda

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Social Justice Ireland? The same outfit that has opined that it would "be unfair" to raise the €33,800 level at which taxpayers have 49% of their income confiscated.

Worrying that 100,000 working parttime would do more work? Do they not realise that many people renter the workforce via parttime work, and many employers hire part timers rather than full timers as their businesses begin to recover.
 

SamsonS

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Social Justice Ireland? The same outfit that has opined that it would "be unfair" to raise the €33,800 level at which taxpayers have 49% of their income confiscated.

Worrying that 100,000 working parttime would do more work? Do they not realise that many people renter the workforce via parttime work, and many employers hire part timers rather than full timers as their businesses begin to recover.
In fairness to the report, it speaks about the Jobs Gap - the difference between peak employment in 07 and now.

Where it could be accused of spin, we now have less people underemployed now (people working part time who would work more) than when the first figures for this was produced in 2008 (92k in q2 2017, compared with 96k in q2 2008).
On the other hand, we still have more people working part time than at peak, about 100,000, and we have 180,000 less people working full time compared with peak.
 

Gin Soaked

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I completely agree. There still is plenty of work to be done: children and the infirm need to be cared for, streets need to be cleaned, services done etc, but the reality is that a diminishing amount of these are full time secure jobs. I think if we are to keep any sort of stability and decency in the industrial world, we will have to shift to a universal basic income in place of unemployment payments, pensions, grants etc and allow people to work part time, return to study,volunteer, run small businesses, care for the infirm etc.
Or we need to ensure that people are engaged in socially positive activity in return for said basic income.

Part of this could be, like you say, in caring vocations. We could hire every teacher and lower the pupil ratio and improve outcomes in disadvantaged areas. And we could employ all lower IQ people in the menial but beneficial civic cleaning and landscaping roles so desperately needed.

This would foster a sense of worth and achievement and ownership of the environment and society generally.

Lots of low level clerical work could be done too. Many sports clubs could benefit from admins and linesman.
Now, paying for this would be a challenge.

You'd need buy in from taxpayers. If there was a quick win (teachers) then we could get on board.
 

SamsonS

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Or we need to ensure that people are engaged in socially positive activity in return for said basic income.

Part of this could be, like you say, in caring vocations. We could hire every teacher and lower the pupil ratio and improve outcomes in disadvantaged areas. And we could employ all lower IQ people in the menial but beneficial civic cleaning and landscaping roles so desperately needed.

This would foster a sense of worth and achievement and ownership of the environment and society generally.

Lots of low level clerical work could be done too. Many sports clubs could benefit from admins and linesman.
Now, paying for this would be a challenge.

You'd need buy in from taxpayers. If there was a quick win (teachers) then we could get on board.
Is this in addition to the 30,000 people already working in community work, sports centre, childcare, eldercare, afterschool's, enviromnetal, tourism, sports clubs, tidy towns, village enhancement paid for the Dept of Social Protection?
 

Gin Soaked

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Is this in addition to the 30,000 people already working in community work, sports centre, childcare, eldercare, afterschool's, enviromnetal, tourism, sports clubs, tidy towns, village enhancement paid for the Dept of Social Protection?
Yes. Some areas have little employment prospects, and already there are many who deeply lack commercial employment skills.
 


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